I know the rugby experts are going to take issue with me on this one…but bear with me and just consider something for one second.
I know everyone says John is not a tighthead prop. But damn, we did some good work when both John and Bismarck was on the park together!
In all 11 Test Matches that John Smit and Bismarck Du Plessis started together since 2008, we have lost two. That includes wins over the British and Irish Lions x2, Wales, Scotland, New Zealand x3 and Australia x 2. We lost only to France in Toulousse and to Australia in Brisbane.
Ja ja, I know, some of you feel stats mean nothing, but the IRB rankings and the quality of the All Blacks are measured on exactly that…stats! So if you don’t care about stats, then don’t concern yourself with who is the best team in World rugby.
Now, we could argue that we should do better with a real tighthead. Maybe we will. Personally, I don’t like Victor too much as a leader in the Bok squad. He is great for the Bulls though, and it is nothing personal against him, its just my feeling. I think Victor is a brilliant player for the Boks, as long as he isn’t captain.
So, do I reason like Divvie and keep John at all costs? Or do we play Bismarck at hooker where he belongs and John Smit gets a “Gary Teichman” ?
Interestingly, of the 4 tests in this period where Bismarck replaced John Smit, we lost 2 (NZ and Ireland) and won 2 (both Wales).
And seeing as the game is now more about the breakdown than the fixed phases, why not?
Maybe we should not be too short sighted about who plays where, but look at what is best for the team…I know its unconventional, and whenever the coaches try something different they get lambasted, but what if it is not mere co-incidence?
John and Bismarck, most successful front row?
The whole problem with this John Smit tight head scenario is that nobody can become an international tight head overnight.
Not even in one full international season.
What they don’t seem to realize is that a tight is red wine that has to mature.
You have to INVEST in a tight head and in fact all great teams of the past have INVESTED in a complete front row.
For John Smit to play tight head in the 2011 WC he should have been playing every test at tight head for the last 3 seasons.
The Bok coaches have completely misunderstood the above and have made so many changes in the front row that you cannot keep up with them.
Of course they will argue that in the modern game they are looking for modern props, however you still have to mould a front row together even if they are modern day props.
Of course if our coaches simply think that you can take a man who plays hooker, pack on a few kilos and problem solved at tight head then that tells you everything about their understanding of the front row.
Am with you on this Met, in fact I posted this idea in a reply on here a few weeks ago, questioning whether Smits time at tighthead has impacted on his fitness, maybe that he had to bulk up more to do that. But also on the basis that from all accounts the ‘specialist’ tightheads haven’t exactly been on fire this season for the Boks anyway and if the coach has to keep Smit for his captaincy maybe it would be better at tighthead cause Bismarck on form is simply the best for the Boks at hooker.
BUT I really dont know much about what goes on in the front row and was soon put right by a more knowledgeable poster.
The only issue I disagree with you on is that I wouldn’t consider getting Smit away would be ‘Teichman’, in my opinion Teich was the best player in his position especially for northern hemisphere World Cup conditions and so shouldn’t have been replaced by Mr Flash Skinstad who at the time I think was still getting back from injury. In Smits case we have loads of people debating that he is not the number one hooker in the country so thats where I think the difference is between Smit and Teichman.
The debate about whether Smit is better or worse than Bismarck boils down to how do you assess what is important in an international hooker.
That should start with who is better at the basics of scrumming and throwing the ball into the line out.
Thereafter you can assess the other important qualities that are needed in the modern game.
It is no good having a hooker who scores tries but cannot do the basics and the reverse is also true in that you want a hooker to master the basics and then add more to his all round game.
I believe that most people forget about the importance of the basics because unless they have played there they cannot see what is happenning and therefore judge a hooker on what he does with the ball in his hand around the field.
I may be old fashioned but I will give up some of the other qualities for a hooker who can scrum very well and is excellent at the line out.
Lastly it is completely wrong to believe that Smit needed to put on weight to move to tight head, as his technique is more important than weight, given that he is big enough already.
If the coaching staff decided to bulk him up then that was a mistake.
There are various resons for the stats of game wins and losses… and just the wins and losses count in isolation does not suddenly make the front row sound with John Smit at tight head.
(A much better analysis would have been to say… with John and Bissie playing next to one another there were X amount of scrums, where the Bokke threw the ball in Y amounts of times and opposing teams z amounts of times. We won P% of scrums on own throw, lost Q amount of tight heads, won R amount of tight heads and received the ball S times at the back of the scrum under pressure.)
In other words, one needs to look closer and analise the games where John played tight head next to Bissie at hooker and analise every bloody scrum in those matches to see how that specific set piece went… Did the Bokke stand their ground in the scrums? Did we get shunted back? Did we lose tight heads? What was the quality of possession behind the scrum for the scrummie and No 8 and how did the scrums impact on the backline pressure?
One then needs to look at even more and ask how the other set pieces went (lineouts) and what positive contributions were made by having both there in open play… for instance, how did it affect the breakdowns, tackles, turnovers.
I seem to recall that we had different personnel behind these fatties as well… a Brussow…. an Andries Bekker who could come on as lock replacement, Fourie du Preez at scrumhalf….
So, to conclude, I think we fail to see the whole picture if we do not delve into more than the isolated win-loss scenario….
Personal thoughts are that John is no tight head and I concur with Tight Head that a seasoned front row should have been playing together now for a couple of years…. which makes me believe that Bissie should play and John Smit should be lucky to make the bench.
Take it, don’t take it….
@ tight head:
Good points man its nice to learn from people who have more knowledge on these things, as I said I don’t really know what goes on in front row, never been there, and wouldn’t want too either 🙂 so I guess I doo fit more in the catgory of spectactor who sees more of the things that go on in broken or open play. I just think that the way rugby seems to be heading with the new rules that a Bismarck type player is far more valuable. See your point about a strong scrummaging hooker being needed and an accurate marksman at lineout time, but I would have thought at this level an international hooker should be able to find his jumpers with his eyes closed. Did we not lose a few of our lineouts this Trinations anyway with Smit throwing in and King Vic there? Unless we can get teams to play the game our way, perhaps at a lot slower pace, then we are not going to see as many lineouts and scrums as we had in the past. So a faster more agile skilful with ball in hand, and strong still, player is needed as there are far more ruck situations or cases of the ball being passed the width of the field. Goodness even in the English premiership there were quite a few tries this weekend, so its not just Aus and NZ that are employing the tactic of faster paced running rugby.
@ Bullscot:
That is just it Bull.
You need a hooker who can do it all well.
However the basics should always be non negotiable.
I agree with tight head, you can’t put John smit back on tight head, firstly because it is the one position most difficult to just settle into.
The fact is John Smit made the Sharks scru look a lot better when he actually played on loose head for them during the Super 14, but with Beast and Guthro I doubt whether he will be necessary at loose head.
Don’t forget how John Smit was technically outwitted by his opposing props in europe end of year tour in november, he copped many penalties as the referees deemed him to be scrumming illegally.
In my opinion is this not an option.
Play John Smit at hooker, and bring Bismarck on in the last 25 minutes, this will give John the knowledge that he has to put 110% in during his 55 minutes, and Bismarck can make the impact.
I agree we don’t have the best tight heads, but Jannie du Plessis will have to be our mainstay during next year, BJ Botha is very poor with ball in hand, and has not convinced me at all that he is up to par, CJ v d Linde is out of it, he should retire and go live on a farm.
The only other potential option I see is fast track the Bulls tighthead, I can’t remember his name right now.
Werner Kruger
7 & 8@ biltongbek:
We won’t know if Werner Kruger is ready for the International stage because neither he or any other upcoming tight head was given exposure in the June Test window or thereafter.
We’ll have to now stick with Jannie Dup, who’s done an adequate job, and CJ van der Linde who’s done a less than competent job. Would it not have been nice to measure CJ against Werner this weekend in the clash between the Staat and Bulls… now not possible due to the Blanket ban on contracted Bokke.
Another upcoming tight head is Wiehahn Herbst of the Sharks….
Maar nouja… SARU.. gaan maar aan…. flok maar voort!
you are right in that we won’t know, but perhaps he should go on the end of year tour, we know what Jannie can do. My fear is there isn’t a decent back up for jannie
10@ biltongbek:
I recon the End of Year Tour Team could look like this or relatively close to it…
1. Beast & Coenie Oosthuizen
2. Bissie & Chiliboy
3. Jannie Dup & CJ v/d Linde
4. Flip van der Merwe & Bakkies
5. Hargreaves
6. Francois Louw & Dewald Potgieter
7. Juan Smith
8. Kanko & Duane Vermeulen
9. Francois Hougaard, Januarie
10. Patrick Lambie & Elton Jantjies
11. Bjorn Basson
12. Jean de Villiers
13. Juan de Jongh
14. J P Pietersen
15. Gio Aplon & Zane Kirchner
Some of these are’nt my favourites… but I think it will be close to this team.
It will be a decent team to send, but hell I can’t see the use of CJ, he is slow, a poor scrummer and simply over the hill
12@ biltongbek:
My selection for End Of Year Tour would have been:
1. Beast & Coenie Oosthuizen
2. Bissie & Gary Botha
3. Jannie Dup & Werner Kruger
4. Flip van der Merwe & Bakkies
5. Anton van Zyl
6. Deon Stegmann & Francois Louw
7. Juan Smith (Captain) & Dewald Potgieter
8. Duane Vermeulen & Willem Alberts
9. Francois Hougaard & Sarel Pretorius
10. Patrick Lambie & Elton Jantjies
11. Lwazi Mvovo & Bjorn Basson
12. Jean de Villiers & Wynand Olivier
13. Juan de Jongh
14. J P Pietersen
15. Gio Aplon & Zane Kirchner
I would not selct a single overseas based player.
… and this is considering that we rest all overplayed players…
Now this team I like a whole lot more, would perhaps prefer Duvenhage or Jano Vermaak instead of Sarel Pretorius. This team will give us a very good idea regarding their potential.
What is the news on Andries Bekker?
14@ biltongbek:
I would have chosen Andries Bekker… but he is only due back in 2011.
Same with Brussow, only due back in 2011.
Jano Vermaak might be a better option than Sarel Pretorius… seems Griquas are also thinking Sarel needs a bit of a kick up the bumper, he’s been dropped for the weekend.
1coenie 2 bissie tian straus 3 jannie 4 bakkies flip 5 kruger 6potgieter, stegman 7 juan 8 alberts vermeulen 9 hougaard sarel 10 lambie 11 basson 12 dejong 13 oupa ebersohn 14 mvovo 15 daniller aplon ,baie youngsters in ma die toekoms van die bokke sal ook na kruger en nel op vaskop kyk en saam vat vir ondervinding
@ grootblousmile:
Good team.
I wouldnt consider Gary Botha, Patrick Lambie and Wynand Olivier though.
17@ 4man:
Why not Lambie… apart from being a bit of an irratic goal kicker?
Hookers…. Chiliboy WILL be selected… I just think Gary Botha (experience) in a relatively inexperienced squad might have been better suited than Tiaan Liebenberg, who I rate highly.
About Wynand Olivier… one has to take a 2nd inside centre… who suits the bill?
MEYER BOSMANNNNNNNNN !!!!!!!!!!!!!
My run-on side for End Of Year Tour Tests would probably look like this:
15. Gio Aplon
14. J P Pietersen
13. Juan de Jongh
12. Jean de Villiers
11. Lwazi Mvovo
10. Patrick Lambie
9. Francois Hougaard
8. Duane Vermeulen
7. Juan Smith (captain)
6. Deon Stegmann
5. Anton van Zyl
4. Flip van der Merwe
3. Jannie du Plessis
2. Bismarck du Plessis
1. Beast Mtawarira
@ grootblousmile:
Lambie, I just dont like the idea of blooding guys too young without any plan in place, Percy was nearly destroyed as a youngster and Gaffie and Dav V Hoesselen never ever got over their debacles and they got no support whatsoever…he probably would be alright though.
Gary has had his chance, rather take two youngsters, but thats just a matter of opinion, he is playing well.
Wynand has consistently failed to take the step up…so anybody but him, give one of the oumanne who have never had a run a go or a Stephan if you need a steady head.
But there is nothing wrong with your team, just my personal differences….I really think Coenie is ready for it and boy I wish he could play tighthead.
GBS that run on team may well be imexperienced, but for the hell of it, it will be exciting to watch them play.
21@ 4man:
Coenie is WOELLIG… and I like that…
I believe the End Of Year Tour has to have a balance between experience and a spattering of young talent.
Looking most forward to see how Mvovo goes on left wing, but I suppose Bjorn Basson has the inside track and will run on…
My front row in # 20 has plenty of experience, I feel that the loosies are balanced between fetcher and 2 other hard men.
Centres a mix between experience at 12 and wonderful talent at 13.
Concerned about JP Pietersen, hope he regains red-hot form.
22@ biltongbek:
Well, when resting frontliners, one expects a bit of an inexperienced mix to be involved….
@4man coenie CAN play tighthead he has on various packed down at tighthead as a result of injurie durung the game
25@ smallies72:
Like Tight Head says…. a tight head is not made in a few games…
Coenie IS a loosehead, who’s played on tight head out of necessity only.
@ grootblousmile:
I someone gave him a ball then he would have a chance to run…but he had to go looking for it all the time and also you could see the coach had spent no time on him and Mossie as a combo (JP) but then again they have played together before.
@ smallies72:
Ja, but it is not his usual position and he dissapears when he plays there, if they consistently had played him there from two years ago then we would have seen something, but he is as strong as a bull and very fit and mobile….nice to see….no matter what anyone says about him, you can see Os’s influence on this youngster…his first year he was still puppyfat.
@gbs nee ek weet ek noem ma net hy kan seker nog jonk genoeg as mens dan moet convert na vaskop, ek was 23 toe ek van los na vaskop geskuif het maar ek sal hom hou op los en vir kruger en nel ontwikkel
29@ smallies72:
Hoekom begin WP Nel nie in Saterdag se game vir die Staat nie… Calldo is nou nie juis vir my ‘n gevaarte op wielle nie!
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