In recent weeks I said my bit about referees. I came across this video made by an Australian no-less which I think makes for some fascinating viewing.
The Boks and how they play is one issue, the refereeing is a completely different issue.
No words necessary to explain this.
@ grootblousmile:GBS…ek stem in die meeste van jou punte saam, met die uitsondering dat die punte verskil dalk so bietjie minder sou gewees get, met die gevolg ons bestuur se aanhaling minder snyend as die refs meer reverdig geblaas het. Dan sou meeste mense die nedelaag aanvaar het en sportsman-like erken het ons is deur n veel beter span geklop.
120@ superBul:
Jy is nou aanhoudend, stop dit!
Wel, die manne op Boots & All is dit ook eens dat die ref hond :poop: was en dat daar geen “consistency” was nie.
Al die gepraat daaroor sal i.m.o. op iets uitloop…
@ grootblousmile:
Wat is jou eerlike opinie oor die gebeure op die video hierbo…
Jy kan seer sekerlik nie daarmee genoee wees nie ?
Kyk ek stem die Bokke het baie werk in hul eie kamp, maar ons is “genail” daar…
Verder, hoekom kry Rolland NOG ‘n Tri-Nations game maar Wessels word oor EEN fout weg gelaat ?
Dit is straight forward belaglik !!!
….meanwhile, back at the ranch……
đ
Blouste, daai video wys die dinge wat die refe misgekyk het wat NZ verkeerd gedoen het. Maar wat as daar n’ video gemaak was van wat ons mee weg gekom het?
Ek gee jou n’ bried dat jy 10 of so dinge uit daai game kan haal wat ons mee weggekom het.
Een spesifieke oomblik wat ek kan onthou was toe Dan Carter op die linkerkant van die veld n’ grubber deurgeskop het en Wynand Olivier het hom uitgeskouer. Niks het daar gebeur nie.
Al wat ek se is dat presies wat PDV na daai game gese het was dat die ref inconsistent was, maar hy het net gekyk na een kant.
Ontleed die game in balans en as daar dan niks fout was waarmee ons weggekom het nie en dit kan bewys word in al drie games, kan jy conspiracy bewys.
Anders is dit maar net n’ geval van incompetent refereeing.
gbs @ 119
ok ek hoor jou,
(en van my posts sou jy sien ek raak aan sommige vd punte in #119 genoem),
goed, so kom ons konsentreer vir ñ oomblik dan op dele vd game (die veranderlikes)
en aangesien hierdie in elk geval ñ thread oor die breakdown is, hoekom nie daar begin nie?
…
soooooooooo
hoe benader ONS hierdie fasset as
1. die ref se vertolking
en
2. ons opposisie se taktiek rondom die breakdown/ tackle area dieselfde bly?
o
and goooooooooooooooodmorning everyone!!
Ashley, Goeie more, good morning, konitshiwa, sawobona, ciao
biltongbek @ 127
“Anders is dit maar net nâ geval van incompetent refereeing”
1. daar stem ek met jou saam, of laat ek sĂȘ moet ek met jou saamstem, tensy ek my hande kan lĂȘ op nog ñ “get the japies” email, đ
2. jy sal ook vind dat die frustrasie oor INCONSISTENCY presies is wat regdeur meeste vd posts loop … as jy bv craig joubert se game met die vd nh refs moet vergelyk, weet j presies hoe craig sekere aspekte vd game benader, wat hy toelaat/nie toelaat nie ens ens ens
met die ander ouens is dit ñ geval v skouers optrek en erken jys nou so deurmekaar soos kots in ñ tuimeldroër
…
daarom dat ek reeds v gistermiddag af vra, kom ons kyk hoe benader hierdie ouens die verskillende aspekte vd game en chat dan oor aanpassings wat ons in taktieke rondom hierdie aspekte sou maak!
biltongbek @ 130
ok aangesien ek net een taal magtig is
…
mĂŽre mĂŽre mĂŽre mĂŽre mĂŽre
AShley, ek het hierdie die anderdag op n’ ander thread geplaas, en dit is hoe ek sien ons moet begin.
What is different about this All Black team? What allows them to play with such speed?
The answer is simple. They play as a cohesive unit, communicates well, understands exactly what the task is at the breakdown, kick offs etc. Because of this they have momentum and if you want to beat the All Blacks you need to stop their momentum.
During the last 3 weeks i have noticed two specific areas where they gain momentum and immediately put teams under pressure, Australia this weekend when receiving a kick off were never able to secure the ball. Against South Africa the same thing happened. The question is why.
Dan Carter aims with pin point accuracy to land the ball where the main receivers arenât. With uncanny ability the stationary locks with their lifters werenât in position to take these catches. The All Blacks with regularity could gain the possession and launch immediate attacks. My answer to this is to handle a kick off in the same manner as an up and under, donât have your lock and lifters be stationary, form your normal defensive line, spread your receivers and have them run onto the ball, this way your player in the best position can nominate and be âairborneâ at the time of catching the ball and can there for not be tackled, as soon as he has nominated the support players know where to secure the ensuing ruck.
At ruck time, it seems the All Blacks have realised that combinations are vital to secure quick ruck ball and every back row player knows exactly the order of priority when it comes to a ruck, the ball carrier will have at least two supporters with him, and if not he will run towards his support rather than away from it. They firstly secure the tackled ball by having a player bind over the ball, whilst still being deemed to be on his feet. Then the next guy clears opponents. The role Owen Franks played over the weekend was interesting, he seemed to flirt with being offside at almost every breakdown, and cleared opposition players not part of the ruck as a blocker, thus creating space around the ruck. This is why Weepu had never been under pressure.
To negate this momentum, the teams will have to learn a new way of taking the All Blacks on. I think the breakdown could be handled in this way, tackler tackles and rolls away, first arriving at the ruck, must solely focus on the player covering the ball, and pull him out of the ruck. The next player in then will attack the ball. But be aware of what the All Black forwards are doing around the ruck. They will often be in either a blocking position or flirting with the offside line. Donât hesitate to inform the referee of this. The All Blacks flirt with the edge of the law, and often a word in the refereeâs ear would soon have the required effect. There must be designated clearers, when the All Blacks go over the ruck lying on the wrong side, have designated players to drag them out, and then play on.
There is a saying that goes, attack is the best form of defence, and that is true in rugby, by having the ball you deprive the All Blacks of ball, no better way to halt their momentum. You also have the opportunity to play, but what is most important is what you do with ball in hand. By kicking the possession away, you immediately give momentum to the All Blacks, and you need to starve them from possession. So patience is the key, doesnât matter how many phases you need to put together to score a try, the All Blacks doesnât have the ball, so your first objective is reached.
Donât ever kick deep, this gives them the opportunity to attack from deep. Rather employ little grubber kicks in behind the defence and put pressure on the cover defender racing towards the ball. Donât run away from your support, as the All Blacks are very good at isolating the attacking player and then has more numbers to the ball at arrival and hence rights to play the ball. Variation is key, the All Blacks has the ability to learn quickly when a player has limited decision making skills, and once predictable it is all over.
This All Black team is playing scintillating rugby at the moment, they are a very well coached team, they are beatable, but currently teams are allowing them to build momentum. These guys are not super human, they are world class athletes, well coached and being allowed by the opposition to do whatever they want.
So stop their momentum, keep possession, be patient, talk nicely to the referee, communicate and lastly understand the reason the All Blacks are so good at the moment, every player trusts and knows what the guy next to him is going to do, and even if he is not the first guy at the ruck normally, knows what must be done if he is the first. So the players are adaptable to each other roles
Too many guys to reply to so just a general comment from some things I have read here.
Firstly, the importance of the ruck and the tackled area is hugely important, MASSIVE. It makes up over 70% of the game!
Where there is on average less than 10 scrums a game, and less than 20 line-outs a game, there is an average of close to 150 rucks a game!!!
You can win all the line-out and scrum ball you want, and yes it gives a good platform, but if you are going to lose the tackled area or ruck aspect of the game you are quite simply screwed.
Needless to say this is also an area any team will look to create dominance. Offensively and defensively if you control your own ball (speed and clean ball) and disrupt opposition ball you are pretty much in control of the game. Everything in rugby, defense, kicking, running the ball, everything is dependent on how you perform at this area of the game.
It then becomes very logical this is the area that needs to be policed more than any other area in the game, if any team gets and unfair advantage in this area it does a lot more damage than any yellow card, (or given how the Aussies played with 14 men in the 2nd half of the test last week), or even a red card can do.
Also make no mistake, teams are COACHED to try and get away with as much as they can in this area. They study referees, they study opposition structures and tendancies at the tackled area in different areas of the field. They identify cleaners, pillars, ball carriers etc. and form strategies to upset these structures of opposing teams, i.e. taking out a pillar (illegaly but ‘innocently’) so a gap is created close in from the ruck.
This does not happen by default and guys believe me, teams that practice this day in and day out are bloody good at hiding this from referees or sly enough to make it look innocent or having no influence on the game…
What referee’s do not do, is study trends by teams.
Teams study referees, the All Blacks KNEW Craig Joubert penalizes the defending team 80% of the time and guess what happened, he did exactly the same again last Saturday. They know exactly how to manage a referee and know Craig is not as strict or does not pay much attention to illegal cleans from rucks from attacking teams as he is more interested in having the defending teams abide by the laws…
What needs to change is referees need to be made aware of tactics and trends certain teams employ, they need to be made aware what NZ, SA and Aus does and where they make themselves guilty of illegal tactics (usually not policed) at a ruck or tackled area. But they do not! Referees should spend as much, if not MORE time studying teams and trends – especially at the ruck.
Coaches scrutinize every single aspect of the laws, spend hours upon hours on video footage to find the smallest opportunity, even if ILLEGAL to try and get an advantage.
They specifically coach their players to do this in a game.
Effectively what I am saying is that players, ALL PLAYERS FROM ALL TEAMS, are coached to cheat to some extent.
When Peter said a couple of weeks back that the only way his team will be able to compete will be if he coaches them to cheat, you guys have no idea how on the mark he was.
I will challenge anyone, to study the Boks 3 Tri-Nations games so far and then try to put a video together like the above at the tackled area and see if you can come close to what has been exposed above.
I have personally done and coached teams to do exactly what the AB’s did above, I coached them how to cheat effectively. The only time that changes was when opposing coaches picked up on it, and made referees aware of it – after that, I was forced to change.
There is no difference here.
sorry that i only respond now, but ive been away from my pc for a while
..
anyway
i did read this one earlier
and
its got quite a few valid points in it (not as many as you think though, lol)
..
ok so here goes
“They firstly secure the tackled ball by having a player bind over the ball, whilst still being DEEMED to be on his feet”
…. My problem? they hardly ever are which already give you a few headaches as
1. they’re sealing the ball off, which already make the contest for the ball almost impossible
2. even if you have more guys than them at the breakdown, its almost impossible to ruck them off the ball as their body positions (illegally) are already lower than that of our players
“The role Owen Franks played” hmmm, what can i say? very simple, but very efficient tactic which unless refs start penalising them for blocking players will still cause us quite a few headaches as
1. he’s slowing anyone down who wants to enter the breakdown and also, as you mentioned, block anyone who wants to get to their scrumhalf
2. by consistently doing it he’s creating frustration amongst players of the opposition side as
they have to keep running around them
but
also cant take him out without running the risk of being penalised/ yellowcarded
from rugby365
“New Zealand tactics, legal or illegal, remain the main topic for discussion ahead of the second Bledisloe Cup/Tri-Nations match between the All Blacks and Wallabies.
Friday’s two captain’s media conferences, ahead of Saturday’s showdown in Christchurch, again raised the issues of the Kiwi tactics at the breakdown.
Wallaby captain Rocky Elsom said his major concern was the “clutter” of All Black bodies he claimed were slowing the ball at rucks and the Wallabies were prepared to act if the referee didn’t.”
from the same article as mentioned in #136
…
While Elsom said the breakdown had been a problem last week in Melbourne, where New Zealand won 49-28, he stopped short of following former Wallabies coach Bob Dwyer – who called the All Blacks “THE BIGGEST CHEATS IN WORLD RUGBY” earlier this week đŻ
..
no
i’m not shocked at WHAT he said … i’m shocked that this is the first word i hear of it!!
now
just imagine for a moment that this was said by pdv!! đŻ
or
any other saffa for that matter!!
What are the stages of the loss process?
Stage 1: Denial
Stage 2: Bargaining
Stage 3: Anger
Stage 4: Despair
Stage 5: Acceptance
…..DING!!!!….WE HIT STAGE 5 đ
for some…
Stage 1: Anger
Stage 2: Anger
Stage 3: Anger
Stage 4: Babelaas
Stage 5: Acceptance
đ
đ
Question: Law âinterpretationsâ are a major problem and the inconsistencies lately have lead to great anger, not only in fans but Iâd suggest in players, too. My question â why does the IRB not implement a âpost mortemâ review of the game the next day where the ref sits with the captain and coach of the team and they watch the game together. Refs can then indicate why they made the decisions they made, players/coaches can query and better understand, and maybe they can also indicate why Richie McCaw should be penalized to death! Thanks, Dennis.
André answers: Hi Dennis, there is in fact a post mortem system. In brief it works as follows: match reviewers are appointed to review every decision made in the game in a forensic way. This info is given to the referee and if it was bad performance, he is sanctioned. Over and above this, the team management (coach, technical analyst and Captain compiles a team report and then sends it to the Referee manager who comments and passes the info on to the relevant referee. In addition, the team coach may call or email the referee and discuss the performance with him directly.
bos_otter @ 139
if you believe so, i’m ok with that đ
now
i’m just waiting for you guys to tell us what exactly we CAN IN FACT DO about the way
1. the refs officiate the breakdown
and
2. the way the all blacks for one are operating at this facet of play!!
waiting in anticipation
your humble servant in rugby
ashley
@ Ashley:
Ash,,,daar is amper boggerol wat ouenes soos ons hieraan kan doen. Sure, ons kan almal raas,bakei,nit-pick en ons eerlike opinie gee van hoe ons dink hulle die game moet speel, en hoe ons dink hulle die AB’s kan counter, maar aan die einde van die dag, is ons enigste opsie om ons span en sy bestuur te ondersteun en vetrou dat hulle die regte ding sal doen. Ons kan nie al ons games wen nie, en wanneer ons verloor maak dit seer,maar Jeremy Guscott het eenkeer gese “what really surprises me is that supporters feel they have the right to be entertained”. So min as wat ek dit like, het die game proffesioneel geraak. Rugby is nou groot besigheid en groot geld. Waar in die verlede die ouenes die game gespeel het vir plesier, is dit nou n job. Is lekker on entertain te word as hulle mooi speel, maar feit is die ouens is daar om n job te doen en resultate te kry, en dis die bestuur se job om seker te maak hulle doen. Ons is almal maar net n klomp backseat drivers.Ek weet sommige ouenes voel dat as genoeg mesne begins saamskreeu, die rugby base ons sal hoor en sal begin luister, maar ek is nie so seker nie. Vat skool-rugby as voorbeeld…jare terug was dit altyd die ryk boere wat op die kerkraad dien wat se seuns 1ste span gehaal het, en dit was hulle wat al die belangrike besluite geneem het. In die proffesionele rugby is dit die selfde ding…daai ouenes maak soos hulle wil man…kyk maar net na Paddy.
bos_otter @ 143
ag
ons doen maar net wat ons gewoonlik doen .. discuss issues rondom rugby
.. ooglopend was meeste vd bloggers vir die afgelope week of meer in 2 groepe
dié wat gevoel het dat die refs se invloed in die games (veral dié waarin ons gespeel het), ñ ontsettende groot invloed op die uitslae van ons games gehad het
en
ander wat gevoel het groep 1 probeer verskonings maak deur die refs skuld te gee
..
wel,
daarom dat ek nou probeer om uit te vind as
1. die ref se interpretasie
en
2. saam met dit die manier hoe die all blacks speel, dieselfde bly
HOE BENADER ONS DAN DIE BREAKDOWNS?
Ashley, ek dink die twee groepe is eerder, die wat kwaad is en emosioneel redeneer oor die onreg, en die ander groep stem meerendeels saam, maar voel ons moet ons kant reg kry om uit n’ poging van sterkte die saak aan te vat.
145@ biltongbek:
Damn, ek kon netsowel daai comment self gepen het…. spot-on!
@ Ashley:Ash…ek voel ons moet, soos die AB’s heeltyd die bal in play gehou het, die AB’s so min as moontlik geleentheid gee om die bal in die hande te kry…ons moet daai bal rondbeweeg so veel ons kan, so vinnig ons kan. Het jy nog nooit opgelet hoe hoe bokke grond toe beweeg nog voor hulle getackle word nie?…amper soort van,”ag hulle gaan my in elk geval tackle, so kom ons gaan le maar solank met die bal en wag vir my maatjies” đ
@ bos_otter:
Jy weet Ash…hulle moet rucking terugbring….dan kan ons daai outjies wat so ewe gemaklik oor die bal val, mos lekker met die boots uitkrap đ
@ bos_otter:….niks soos n paar toks-stripes oor jou rug nie…GT stripes
Ash, ek dink die ander probleem was daar nie genoeg springbok support was by elk breakdown nie, wat die AB’s toeglaat het om soort van bo oor die bal te stroom…as hierdie ouenes dan eers tussen ons en die bal is, is dit al tyd wat die AB’s nodig gehad het om die bal op te pik voor die ref begin blaas omdat hulle nie wegrol nie. Kyk daai video, en jy sal sien wat ek meen.
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