Sharks (15) 29 / 12 (6) Lions (Final Score)
The Cell C Sharks and Emirates Lions did battle in Super Rugby at
Growthpoint Kings Park, Durban at 19:10 SA Time (17:10 GMT).
This was the live match discussion Article.
The match was broadcast LIVE on SuperSport 1 & M-Net on TV in SA.
*******************
Scorers:
Sharks:
- Penalties – Patrick Lambie (1)
- Drop Goals – 0
- Tries – Odwa Ndungane (1), Cobus Reinach (1), Marcell Coetzee (2)
- Conversions – Patrick Lambie (3)
Lions:
- Penalties – Marnitz Boshoff (4)
- Drop Goals – 0
- Tries – 0
- Conversions – 0
Teams:
Cell C Sharks |
Emirates Lions |
| 21 February at 19:10 SA Time | |
|
|
Referee: Rohan Hoffmann (Australia)
Assistant Referees: Andrew Lees (Australia), Stuart Berry (South Africa)
TMO: Deon van Blommestein (South Africa)
MacroBull wrote:
88
Suit yourself – but the reality that I see is that JP is an accomplished cricketer across all formats of the game that right now will be impossible for the Proteas to replace – he is a good (and to the circumstances adaptable) batsman, especially during the late overs of an ODI, a very good fielder & a fair/decent bowler in conducive conditions. In addition he has years of experience.
So much more than just a minnow basher …
Jip. Duminy bowls 10.
@ Angostura:
like i said, he can be good for 20 runs against good teams, and he can get in quite a few overs with his spin (also crucial to our over rate)and he is a good fielder, I agree… i am in no way advocating that we replace him when cant even find an adequate replacement for the no7 role batsman/bowler.
All i am saying is that he scored exponentially more runs against minnows, literally twice as much on average. This boosts his average significantly.
3 times more actually
Gumboots is right David Wiese would be far better than Parnell and Berhardien.
MacroBull wrote:
How does it compare to others? Don’t they all have better averages against minnows?
Also, who are the minnows & who are the non-minnows …
Another thing, where in the batting order did JP bat against the minnows, & where against our competitive peers? If one bats higher up in the order you generally have more opportunity to construct, establish & make a big score … but JP is seldom a top order batsman, especially against serious opposition.
@ Angostura:
@ 307
Another thing that makes comparing statistics even more complicated is that a minnow today can be a non- minnow tomorrow or vice verso. Take the Bulls in rugby for example. A few years ago they were feared and now even some of their die-hard fans seem to believe they are minnows 🙂
@ robzim:
Well I dont know where to place the windies really, because we have pretty much consistantly dominating them since readmission. so look at the “general” top 6 and the 6 teams below them (minnows)
Tier 1
Aus 38
England 16
India 32
NZ 31
Pak 39
Lanka 21
Windies 63
average 35
Tier 2
bangla 51
ireland 99
kenya 100
netherlands 190
zimbabwe 95
average 106
duminy has scored 31% of his career runs against minnows and absolutely “bashes” them. IF you split it 6/6 duminy averages 30 against the “top 6” and 100 vs the “bottom 6”
@ MacroBull:
Extract from Herchell Gibbs’ column…..
“An example of where we weren’t mentally strong was the dismissal of JP Duminy, who tried to reverse sweep Ravichandran Ashwin. He’d made six off 15 balls with the score 147 for 4 in the 32nd over. This was not Zimbabwe we were playing, but the world champions in front of 90,000 largely Indian fans at the MCG. The pressure was on and he failed to handle it.”
– See more at: http://www.sacricketmag.com/2015/02/big-wake-call/#sthash.kiDWnsHO.dpuf
AB compared to JPD against those same teams
Tier 1
Aus 63
England 29
india 46
NZ 56
Pak 61
Lanka 54
Windies 66
average 54
Tier 2
Bangla 71
Ireland 40
Kenya 20
Netherlands 67
Zim 50
average 49
@ MacroBull:
Further extract…..
“When you look at Duminy’s four ODI hundreds, three have come against Zimbabwe and one against the Netherlands. He has also scored a 99 against Ireland and a 90 against Kenya.
Duminy needs to start producing the big scores against the bigger countries, so that’s a worry.”
Seems like you are not alone in your thinking, Hershell agrees with you
JPD also get more N.O’s
JPD 30 N.O in 124 innings (24%)
ABD 29 N.O in 174 innings (16.7%)
theoretically that should help his average much more than AB no?
@ nortie:
Geez, Herche seems like a stalker 😯
thanks
MacroBull wrote:
That’s what I said when Mallet and the SARugbymag also started talking and writing about the influence of the TV producers on rugby matches 😆
309 @ MacroBull:
JPD
Tier 1
Aus 38
England 16
India 32
NZ 31
Pak 39
Lanka 21
Windies 63
average 32
Tier 2
bangla 51
ireland 99
kenya 100
netherlands 190
zimbabwe 95
average 96
AB
Tier 1
Aus 63
England 29
india 46
NZ 56
Pak 61
Lanka 54
Windies 66
average 53
Tier 2
Bangla 71
Ireland 40
Kenya 20
Netherlands 67
Zim 50
average 50
*Edit the averages
He he……
Attachment:
@ MacroBull:
Thanks for the stats.
I would not take much note of averages of matches against the Netherlands and Kenya because it was probably one offs….both players however played quite a number of times against Zim so the fact that Duminy averaged twice as many as AB against them certainly supported your view of him being a minnow basher.
Interesting that they both average so low against England in comparison to matches against better teams such as Australia/India?
@ nortie:
@ 317
Lol…. when I saw the light blue jersey I though for a moment it is a trimmed down Pierre Spies who also occasionally seems to “play for the opposition”.
robzim wrote:
Ha ha….look at the photo I placed on the Varsity live game thread….Pierre is there 😆
@ robzim:
I cant remember the last time we played england in a series. But i recall that nightmare series in england where they tore us a new one. We got bowled out for something like 40 runs in one game.
Excuse me was 83 runs all out
MacroBull
With respect your stats are statistically unreliable on the basis that there are TOO FEW DATA POINTS vs. minnows, and it is THIS (among other things) that gives rise to anomalous results & bum conclusions.
Like most top teams the Proteas very seldom play the minnows.
How would you explain that both AB & Hash, the #1 & #2 ranked batsmen in the world, have lower collective averages against the minnows than they have against the non-minnows? Would you not expect exactly the opposite! It is a given that if AB & Hash had faced the minnows as often as they had the non-minnows the true impact of the inferior bowling, fielding, tactics & experience of the minnows would be reflected in substantially higher averages by AB & Hash against them.
The fact that JP has a (more than x3) higher average against the minnows than the non-minnows is not surprising. Both AB & Hash had very few not out innings against the minnows, whereas conversely more than half of JP’s innings against the minnows were not out which in turn greatly inflates his collective batting average against them & in fact probably distorts his apparent batting prowess way beyond his true ODI batting ability in those relatively few matches vs. the minnows.
And the preponderance of JP’s not out innings vs. the minnows is not strange either. He is a middle order batsman, the opposition is weak, & the batsmen ahead of him have probably already put the (minnow) opposition to the sword, with the result that he is not under pressure, can bat with composure & ease against weak opposition with no need to chase runs & thus more often than not ends up not out, thereby inflating his batting average.
This distortion sometimes happens to #10 or #11 batsmen that accumulate a great deal of not out innings.
In the premises it is wrong to brand JP a minnow basher, implying his batting against competitive opposition is not so good. The contrary is true: He normally bats under conditions of great pressure, either having to rescue tough situations or having to chase quick runs, or a combination of both. Because of his composure & maturity he does this job better than most others in the Proteas squad. And that’s why this is his job, to bat at 6 or 7, to read, bring calm & effectively adapt & respond to the situation at hand.
@ Angostura:
you can continue believing what you want to believe.
JPD has also scored 30% of his runs vs minnows
Amla has about 18% while AB is at about 13%, forgot the spreadsheet at work but Amla averages about 54 against the “top 7” and 64 against ireland, netherlands, zim, bangla and kenya.
The fact and the truth is that JP duminy scores SIGNIFICANTLY more runs against minnows than his below average record against top ranked teams.
JPD’s 5 highest innings ever were against minnows, less to do with not outs than him being a minnow basher 150 netherlands, 123 zim, 115* zim, 111* zim, 99 ireland. then he had a good 97 against Lanka… followed by 90 vs kenya.
“He normally bats under conditions of great pressure, either having to rescue tough situations”
for a guy with over 120 games he rarely performs, I still get nightmares from that shot he played vs New Zealand in the last world cup, almost as bad as his reverse sweep yesterday.
To me and in my opinion, he under performs against the top teams, and significantly over performs vs minnow (where there is less pressure) while guys like Amla, and AB consistently plays to their ability.
and he will LIKELY score a hundred at this world cup, he can rack up the runs in the next few games 😆
Glen Maxwell – 37 matches, 5 less than JP.
3 innings less
strike rate 118 jp 83
jp average 40, maxwell average 31
and what angostura said.
@ Angostura:
Good post.
Years ago Steve Waugh was rated the #1 test batsman in the world according to the ICC rankings. And he held that position for a while.
While batting at 6 in a strong Aussie batting line-up.
I would hardly call him a minnow basher after what he did to the Proteas.
@ shooter:
Glenn Maxwell?
he played 94 games less than JPD
I apologize if this was another topic of discussion.
@ IAAS:
Are you referring to Waughs 32 average in ODI while being the best test batsman in the world, he didn’t really bash anyone except for the Proteas in ODI cricket, he didn’t leave his best for the lower ranked teams.
I dont get the point? just because JPD does not score runs in big games against big teams, does not make him one of the best T20 batsman in the world (along with FAF)… I guess it is all just about a mindset. and JPD could not rise to the hype so far unless playing against the minnows (and every time we’d hear about how he has no finally “arrived”)
I would love nothing more than for him to prove me wrong in a world cup knockout match though, because I know he has the ability.
just because JPD does not score runs in big games against big teams (in ODI cricket)
MacroBull wrote:
88
First of all some housekeeping:
For purposes of this discussion, the minnows are Scotland, Kenya, Netherlands, Ireland, Zimbabwe & Bangladesh since none of the current crop of Proteas have played Afghanistan or UAE.
The non-minnows (disregarding South Africa) are Australia, India, Sri Lanka, New Zealand, England, Pakistan & the West Indies.
For context & proper comparison’s sake, let’s not just pick on JP – Let us rather assess his ODI stats relative to the other 5 in the much vaunted Proteas’ line-up of top 6 ODI batsmen, and thereafter also relative to a selection of other international middle order batsmen who perform a similar task to that of JP for their respective national ODI teams.
JP vs. Other Proteas’ Batsmen
(Metrics considered: ICC Ranking – Overall Average – Average vs. Non Minnows – Average vs. Minnows)
Amla – #2 – 55.59 – 54.41 – 61.18
Q d K – #10 – 40.54 – 39.68 – 45.00
Faf – #20 – 34.03 – 30.48 – 57.13
AB – #1 – 51.82 – 52.41 – 48.33
Miller – #37 – 37.77 – 32.86 – 96.67
JP – #33 – 40.05 – 31.84 – 96.17
Interestingly all of the above batsmen (other than the #1 ODI batsman in the world) have a better average vs. the minnows than vs. the non-minnows. At 96.67 David Miller has the highest average vs. the minnows, yet “minnow basher” is a term reserved for JP!
Granted, against the non minnows JP’s batting average is the lowest of these 6, but then he bats at 6, doesn’t he? As will appear later, my contention is that JP’s average vs. non minnows is perfectly acceptable and NOT below average for a batsman batting where he does and performing the task that he does.
If anyone is underperforming these stats vs. the minnows indicate that it is Amla, but especially AB. Both of them should be performing considerably better than they do against weak opposition.
JP & Miller’s stats unsurprisingly indicate that one can really cash in against weak opposition (but that not all batsmen do). One should rather congratulate them (JP & Miller) than impugn their track records & reputations.
It is also noticeable that JP’s, a #6, batting averages (overall, vs. non minnows, & vs. minnows) are in all respects superior to that of Faf, a #3 batsman, the position normally reserved for a team’s leading batsman. Yet MacroBull has nothing to say about Faf, preferring to refer to JP’s average vs. non minnows as “below average”.
JP vs. other International Middle Order Batsmen
(Metrics considered: ICC Ranking – Overall Average– Overall Scoring Rate – JP’s Average vs. Non Minnows)
JP – #33 – 40.05 – 83.93 – 31.84
G Maxwell (Aus) – #17 – 31.69 – 117.85
J Buttler (Eng) – #24 – 30.15 – 108.99
S Raina (Ind) – #25 – 35.51 – 93.41
S Smith (Aus) – #29 – 34.91 – 88.41
Shakib al Hasan (Ban) – #35 – 34.83 – 79.84
E Morgan (Eng) – #39 – 35.88 – 85.34
These are all respected international middle order batsmen & JP’s average (vs non minnows), is in the same ball park as their overall averages (including stats vs. minnows). Also, JP’s overall average & scoring rate compares favourably with the stats of most on this list.
And finally the ODI batting stats of another South African middle order batsman that performed a similar role to JP, the iconic Jonty Rhodes, are:
Ave – 35.12
S/R – 80.90
JP’s stats are more impressive than Jonty’s, and yet Jonty is a hero, but MacroBull regards JP as an underachiever…
My ha’penny’s worth is that JP is a very valuable member of the Proteas XI; right now irreplaceable …
Sources:
http://www.howstat.com/cricket/home.asp
http://www.icc-cricket.com/player-rankings/mens-odi
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