It seems that no agreement could be reached to ensure the future of the ERC.
This sees the breakaway of English and French clubs at the end of the current season.
This break away seems to have the European club rugby sector in some turmoil as no one is sure what the next step should.
There are talks of forming 2 new competitions with 20 teams each from the existing 6 nations.
The French again confirmed that they will not play in any competitions that does not include English sides.
The French and English clubs are pushing Premiership Rugby toe create a new competition for 2014/15 as soon as possible.
Rumour has it that they are looking into a global competition. A competition that will be available to teams from any nation.
Could this be the end to all current competitions and see a lot of teams going over to a global competition.
If it does go that far it would be interesting to see how countries using central contracting will handle this scenario.
30 @ MacroBull:
Why ever not?
Saracens and some other Northern sides often come here pre-season to hone themselves in preparation for their season.. and there’s been many occasions where a Sarries game could / would / should have been played in Cape Town and elsewhere.
The time zones suit down to a tee, so time zone jet lag is not an issue… they would also like to be tested against the best down South.
30 @ grootblousmile:
MacroBull is 100% correct.
Look it is one thing for Sarries to come here for a warm up game or two before their season starts. I can tell you now NONE of the of the teams up north will want to travel down here and play in our hot uncomfortable conditions. Not just the heat they simply do not want to travel when they don’t do that now. The longest duration they have to fly is for 2 hours or about 3 the very most. Now why would they want to travel 11 hours and into another season from theirs? From cold to heat, heat to cold? It will not happen. The French already complain just to fly to England let alone down here to the tip of Africa.
We need to get real here it will not happen. Also do you think they really going to put their tournament on hold for 2 years until we arrive in 2016? No not at all. If they start in 2014 next year we still in SR until 2015.
pre season with weakened teams… watch them bring a full squad for 3 weeks?
@ grootblousmile:
its just that we are going to go into negotiations we will hood less cards. these guys are going to give in and bend over backwards to acoommodate us?
the french? no ways.
So we now expect the French and English to travel back and forward to SA each week to play when they don’t do that kind of travel at all.
If they do travel away from home for one game, they fly straight back on the same day. If we do go north they would have to fly here for two weeks probably to get two games out the way and back home. Would they really want to be away from home that long when they are never away from home except for a few hours?
Nope we need to get real here. It will not happen.
32 @ Puma:
33 & 34 @ MacroBull:
I see the same obstacles as you guys… remember that… just read some of the top comments to see what I said to TonyM in particular.
If the right incentives and structures are there, the travel thing can be overcome.. in my mind that is one of the lessor issues.
The whole idea, however appealing, will be difficult if not impossible to impliment under current circumstances, therefore my elaborate questions to TonyM in comment No 29.
Are we overlooking something that TonyM sees? TonyM is deeply ingrained / entrenched in Rugby Administration circles in SA, often directly in opposition to SARU directly… think about the Spears, the court cases against SARU (which was won by the way)…
Would be stupid of us not to investigate and at least consider possible scenarios… not true? Would also give SA some bargaining chips with our SANZAR cohorts… won’t it? One always negotiates from a position of strenght, not from a position of weakness!
The nature of my working life, previously in the legal profession and still in my current business environment has always been geared at solution finding and often in solving complex and almost impossible issues… and usually there is an answer to be found, if only to know what CANNOT be achieved.
27 @ grootblousmile:
Hello GBS, why should the Northern Hemisphere switch to Southern Hemisphere schedule completely? Maybe a compromise of both sides. As far as having the festive period in December/January being a time of no rugby up north – think that is quite a big sacrifice for the north to make. It is a time when people have a bit of time of work and can go down to the stadiums to watch the games – often big derbies played at this year.
Granted it can be far nicer to go watch rugby in the summer with the warm sun on your back and lots of light still to be had after the games compared to winter, but for many the sport in the dull cold winter weekends is something good to look forward to. The advantage of summer would generally be fewer games called of due to inclement weather. BUT to do away with the summer break (mid year) we have at the moment may not work as it can get really hot especially in the south of France, and believe it or not hot and humid in parts of the UK. Plus over here the middle of the year is like December holiday in South Africa ie. lots of people go away on holiday but the difference is that instead of lots of Vaalies going to Durban or Cape Town and effectively still an audience for the rugby many folk here tend to go abroad so you are losing on numbers to go to the grounds to watch the games. Yes some folk may make the effort to watch the games in sports bars on their package holidays so maybe still not such bad news for broadcasting numbers but I would be surprised if the market research showed more people would be watching rugby on TV at this time than in the depths of winter. Even if they did do we want rugby purely to be played for lucrative TV deals in empty stadiums or do we also want atmosphere in the grounds and have the human element of crowd participation. There are also generally more distractions, family things to do outdoors etc. in the summer months than in winter so rugby would have to compete with these too, even if we have more daylight around in summer.
Also in suggesting North takes on South schedule does that mean that the 6 Nations gets played at same time as Rugby Championship, if so they both need shifting about because there is so much history in the 6 (used to be 5) Nations and when its held as well as some of the summer arguments above, that it would be a huge change if 6 Nations was shifted to the Championship.
Gosh so many questions and things to be considered and that’s not everything, the administrators of the game get quite a lot of stick at times but when you delve into things like this you realize all they need to consider to keep things working.
37 @ Bullscot:
That is simply the way I see it, from a weather perspective (and possibly a selfish perspective), the Festive Season often harbouring the worst weather / snow / blizard conditions up North… and I considered the season move Rugby League made to the Northern Hemisphere summer… which was a huge success.
A compromise would be good, give and take both sides… and it would certainly brighten up my December if rugby is envolved… but that is the hottest months in the South….
Difficult conundrum….
The calls for a global season is hightening and getting louder though… long overdue in my opinion.
toulon has an average summer temp of abt 28 degrees too and pretoria 30. whoes gonna give in?
36 @ grootblousmile:
Gbs, We will stay in one tournament. No way will there be two we play in. We simply do not that amount of first class players at international level.
If we go north then we will all go north. None will still be playing in SR. Because I can tell you the kiwis especially will not accept us sending under strength sides there. We will not tolerate it if they went north and sent us their scraps either.
So either we stay in SR which I think is best for our rugby standards, or we go for the money and drop our rugby standards and head north.
Another thing. I feel the Kiwis will feel snubbed. Not so much the Aussies as they want us to only join Arg as it is. However, they could very well tell us to bugger off completely and cut ties with us and NO RC either. Then who do our Boks play? We might be the lonely country again looking for a tournament to play in until we go eoyt to play the northern countries? Do we want that? It is a possibility that could happen. Saru have to think careful before they make any call on this and shoot themselves in the foot. Once we leave we will be out forever in the sh they will never want us back.
I just don’t see the north accepting to travel here to play and especially going from one season to another. They don’t do it now and they will not want to do it ever. We don’t mind as we travel as it is.
I think we will stay in SR and negotiate a better deal for South African franchises that play in SR.
39 @ MacroBull:
hahahaha. Yip..hehe. I don’t think they are thinking clearly here. You and I are and pointing out all the negatives that are clearly there to see. The others here and on all other sites are just by passing the real facts that will not allow us to go north.
Also our rugby standards will drop if we don’t keep on playing with the kiwis.
40 @ Puma:
I agree with you… but let’s see what comes up from TonyM.
You guys are tackling the wrong guy here… I am just as sceptical!
I say tackle the Global Season first… then tackle possible cross hemisphere competitions… as ONE of the possible solutions.
42 @ grootblousmile:
I know you only putting thoughts down here. But TonyM’s thoughts were flawed I feel.
42 @ grootblousmile:
There should be a global season.
43 @ Puma:
I think Tony’s reasoning is terminally flawed too… he even called me feisty for saying so directly!
But at the same time I want to give him the opportunity to convince us….
Tony’s solutions are often very reasonable… and full of merit… look at an Article he inspired on 14 Feb 2012: http://www.rugby-talk.com/2012/02/sarus-super-rugby-riddle-solved-in-a-day/
45 @ grootblousmile:
Hahaha. Well I think it is flawed as well.
Look I doubt we going anywhere. I know the IRB can’t truly tell us where to play our rugby either, but they will have so power in this some way or other. If we go north the rugby in sh might struggle as well.
If we want rugby to be truly global we have to be playing top class rugby like we are in both the Northern and Southern Hemisphere. I feel if we leave it will do more harm to rugby than we think.
Sure Oz and Nz will get on with it without us they done so during the Isolation years and done well enough to win two world cups. This time though in the professional era it will hurt the rugby down here more if one of us trek up there.
I think our rugby has grown and it has taken us 21 years to finally start thinking we can get it back to where we were before Isolation. The very reason is us playing mostly the kiwi sides so often and some of the Aussie sides. We want to build this with Arg as well. Now we sommer want to trek away from all of it. Nah, we have to stay put. Another thing our youngsters will leave in droves if we are playing in the north. They will rather want to play with the super rich clubs than ours here, even if we are getting more money from the broadcasting deal.
meant = IRB will have some power in the say of this.
46 @ Puma:
You are preaching to the already converted… now go nail TonyM, dammit….
48 @ grootblousmile:
I will nab him when I see him here next time….hehe.
Gbs, Where is my Sharky Brudda – Sharks_Forever these days? Do miss his input here with the Sharks and Boks rugby.
9 @ Scrumdown:
In all seriousness though I have heard about London Broncos (a League team)perhaps being in a spot of bother at the moment, can’t recall the detail so will have to look it up, so make me wonder how successful this change to summer for them has been, has it been a case of the rich getting richer… ie. the big clubs in league up north getting better but the ‘smaller’ ones struggling?
38 @ grootblousmile:
Guys I really don’t know much about Rugby League – its a heathen’s game
Also remember summer is a time for cricket up here, and I may be wrong but I’m sure that if you did a survey at a cricket match that you would find a greater proportion of folk there would be Rugby Union fans than League fans so what do they do when they have to chose between a test match or a 20/20 international at Lord’s or a game in London between London Irish and Western Force on the same day. There will always be exceptions in the heart of league country for example around Manchester where you may find more league fans at a cricket test at Old Trafford than union fans, but you get the gist of what I’m trying to say.
Also if you look at the historical differences between league and union, I wonder which set of fans favour football more? There are many of us who like both union and league but often I hear fellow union fans speaking in a derisory manner about football, the ‘Wendy ball’ chirps etc. So I would guess that a bigger percentage of league fans go to football than union so this is what possible helped league in that its not competing for as long a period with football by being played in summer. What do you think Scrumdown?
50 @ Bullscot:
Soccer is Poofball in my mind… hehehe
@ grootblousmile:
You have given me a mountain to climb this Friday the 13th – here you are (the short version):
The implications for SA are:
1. SA Teams to participate… and exactly how many team spots for SA – 6 SA teams – 3 each in the 2 pools of 20 teams
2. Rugby Season changes, SA Competitions at stake or to fall away (eg Vodacom Cup, Currie Cup ect) – Season remains the same with the addition of the BT Sport NH tournament
3. Continued participation in competitions down South (Super Rugby, The Rugby Championship) – Remains the same and now Heyneke “Stressball” Meyer can see more elite players in the SH & NH and choose them for the various conditions.
4. Stretching of player resources in SA and fatigue levels – Not at all – this is succession planning with the addition of another 180 players
5. South African players abroad and EXACTLY where they would fit into the structures – in future the boytjies stay home so they can play internationally – remember the overseas players see themselves as surplus or in the twilight of their careers to harvest some cash.
6. SARU’s ability or inability to negotiate this deal – None
7. SA Broadcasters – SuperSport
8. SA Sponsors – More European multinationals ding business in SA
9. Southern Hemisphere Sponsors and broadcasters in general and their views to this – They have their agreements in place already and this is a new tournament
10. Watering down of the quality of Super Rugby and Super Rugby quality squads in overlapping periods – this is only for 4 games over 2 months
11. How to bring more “lower quality” SA players through to bolster the needed and required numbers who will have to participate – it has started already from Craven Week to Varsity Cup to Club Rugby to Provncial rugby- there are a minimum of 8 players available for every postion in every franchise
12. Initial funding of these fundamental changes, structures… and funding of the Franchises / Provinces who will have to take part – Cash from BT Sport and having an equal share of the 152m Pounds
13. Qualifying format of SA sides (seeing as there is already a problem with Celtic League qualifying) This is entrenchment as do not see the SA teams at the bottom of the log and the Celtic League falls away or can be used for a promotion relegation tournament for the last placed two teams.
14. Additional things I might have overlooked in brief
Looking at the broad spectrum, these questions:
1. Does this then suddenly exclude Celtic League participation in this new structure to make place for 6 SA Franchises (if it’s going to equal the French and English models)? Yes
2. What should the overall format of the competition be… 3 Pools, how many games and where will they be held? Two pools of 20 teams – Home & Away
3. From when till when will this be played? BT Sport October-March Super Rugby February-July
4. When will the off-season be and will it be different for up north (middle of the year) – Yes June versus south (Festive season) – Yes December?
5. Is there a widely accepted want or urge from the Provinces / Franchises as well as SARPA in SA to embrace this monumental change, as it stands now, or will that have to be overcome and cultivated too? This has not even crossed their minds.
6. Is there a collective will at SARU to make something like this happen? No – they are looking to tomorrows game in NZ – the opening of the Springbok Experience next Friday, the game against the Ozzies and then the AB game
7. Is there a collective will and eagreness by the French and English to embrace South Africa into the format, yet shun Australia and new Zealand from it? Absolutely – these are the games that fill stadiums over there and it is new.
8. How does this globally benefit / affect rugby… and here I am not only referring to the exclusion of the Anzac brothers down under… it will materially affect the Celtic League Nations, Argentina and the rest of the awakening European Rugby powers? Those are their problems that they are sorting out now – the cheeky Celtic Nations will have to stand in line or show how good they are.
9. Is this not almost equal to totally re-writing the global rugby structures and landscape – (Yes it is – SA has to move with this shift up North) and a mammoth task which would rather be tackled piece by piece over a number of phased in years to make it more workable OR can this be done in one foul sweep? That is more like watching paint dry – but it can be done in one fell swoop – not foul sweep – but I get your point – a total overhaul is required not a jigsaw approach. The boys at Premiership have the will, the money and the ability to do this now for 2014 and SA better hop on now or lose this.
Hope this makes more sense now.
52 @ TonyM:
Apart from other concerns I have a basic and fundamental problem with the horde of young and “lower Level / quality” players you want to bring through and purport them to be on the same level as Super Rugby stars.
I have a massive problem on how you foresee keeping players in SA, luring a lot back (despite signed contract deals) and players not going North anyway… whilst younger and younger players are doing it at the moment.
I have a problem even contemplating keeping both the Vodacom Cup and Currie Cup going under these circumstances… too much rugby will become “An inordinate amount of rugby”.
I have the impression you think adding 180 players to the core will not weaken our Super Rugby competativeness of participating sides at the same time as weakening SA Team entrance into this new format… with weeaker / lower level players.
I do not think excluding the Celtic League teams will go down well ANYWHERE.
Playing October to March completely takes away / negates the Off Season in SA.
The fact that SA Provinces / Franchises are not even thinking about something like this, spells one thing and one thing only… sheer resistence.
The less said about SARU, the better!
How the rest, who are excluded perceive this and act on it, materially and adversely affects not only rugby globally, it entices strong opposition to the idea and spells resitance to the deal happening.
Fell Swoop… blame it on the fact I’m Afrikaans… hehehe
In summary, the idea is good… the implimentation impossible!
@ grootblousmile:
There is a fundamental misconception that people equate SuperRugby performance to airtime on TV – you have to have more belief in the players you do not see on TV. Remember Bryan Habana did not just appear on the scene – he was there 5 years before and came through via 7’s.
However there is new twist that is unfolding – see below – however I think Premiership and their R2.4bn would not have come this far without checking out the fine print – says me telling this to a lawyer!
This article below will make you smile – as nou kom die eerste perd derde!
I know Martyn Thomas and he is the past Chairman of the RFU and also a feisty geezer.
This just in.
Heineken Cup: English clubs tied in until 2015 – Martyn Thomas
Premiership clubs are contracted to play in the Heineken Cup until the end of the 2014-15 season, according to the former chief of English rugby.
Elite English and French clubs have announced they will play in a new tournament next season.
But former Rugby Football Union chairman Martyn Thomas told Radio Wales that English clubs are tied in to the existing tournament for another year.
“There’s a contractual obligation there that the RFU can enforce,” he claimed.
“It not only provides that they will play in Europe to the end of the season 2014-2015, it also provides that they will play in no other professional competitions.”
Thomas, who left his position of RFU chairman in November 2011, accused the English and French clubs of “grandstanding”.
European qualifying process
Heineken Cup qualification for Welsh regions is currently based on how they finish amongst themselves in the Pro12 season.
The top three are guaranteed a place in European rugby’s premier tournament, with the fourth entering the second tier Amlin Challenge Cup.
Three of the four Irish provinces are guaranteed a place, with the two Scottish and Italian clubs qualifying regardless of where they finish in the table.
The English and French clubs want a tougher qualification process where the top six sides, regardless of nationality, would qualify for the tournament.
This is the criteria facing Premiership and Top 14 clubs.
On Tuesday a statement issued by Premiership Rugby, which represents the 12 top-flight English clubs, said they and the French Super 14 clubs are setting up a European tournament which would “also be open to teams from other countries”.
The current two European competitions, the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup, involve teams from England, France, Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales.
However, the English and French argue their qualification criteria are much tougher and put them at a disadvantage in the competitions.
They served notice to quit the tournament in 2012, however, Thomas does not believe their proposed alternative can get off the ground.
“It’s grandstanding,” he said.
“The ERC (European Rugby Cup) agreement was signed, and it was signed subsequently to an agreement that the RFU and PRL [Premier Rugby Ltd] and each individual club entered into and that was in 2007.
“One of the terms of the agreement was that the Premiership clubs would remain playing in Europe until the end of that agreement with the RFU.
“The RFU have got to stand up and be counted, it’s not a popularity competition being at the RFU.”
Thomas also expects the French Rugby Federation and International Rugby Board to block any move to form a new tournament.
“The clubs in England require the consent of their union, the teams in France require the consent of their union,” he said.
“Pierre Camou is probably one of the strongest presidents in world rugby – he is a tough guy.
“Also, because it’s a cross border they require the consent of the IRB and they have a French chairman in Bernard Lapasset.
“There is no way that those two Frenchmen are going to give consent for this to occur.”
Kings lead by 19-0 at halftime in Boland and have the wind at their backs for the next 40mins.
54 @ TonyM:
The quality and performance of sides are directly linked and correlated to stadium attendances… and also to TV viewership. Call that general interest in the game as opposed to Airtime on TV.
Look at the MTN Lions in Super Rugby as a good example… bad performances led to rather scant stadium attendances there.
The players I do not see on TV are to a large extent lower quality players, not at the same standard as regular Super Rugby players, so it’s natural and a reality that they will perform, even if partly, at lower performance levels in they teams that they dilute at the same time…. which will necessarily lead to lower winning percentages, never winning a cup and teams from South Africa faring rather badly in Super Rugby and in possible Northern Competitions.
How can one ever enter International Competitions but with the best of the best players available and on show AND performing at peak?
Now to the Article… first proper sticks in the mud to the proposed cross-hemisphere competition, casting grave doubt whether the RFU or French Rugby Federation or the IRB will ever sanction the proposed cross-hemisphere competition.
Secondly it might suit SA that the English are bound till the 2014 / 2015 season, because it adds a proper time frame for SA to come into a structure exactly when they will be good and ready to do so… if it ever happens.
The threats by the French and English are described as GRANDSTANDING I see, and to some extent I agree, because they are using these threats to create a stronger bargaining position for themselves at the table with the Celts, in te ERC.
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