The most experienced lock pairing in the history of world rugby will be re-united against Italy on Saturday when Victor Matfield and Bakkies Botha play together for a 60th time.
JJ Harmse:
Matfield will skipper the Springboks for the 11th time while John Smit recovers from his hamstring injury.
The team is likely to show six changes from the one that thrashed France at the weekend.
Botha is fit and available again after serving out his suspension of four weeks and undergoing minor knee surgery.
He will be short of match-fitness, but that is good news for the Boks’ Tri-Nations plans.
Danie Rossouw will be rested and injuries have necessitated two changes. Chiliboy Ralepelle will replace Smit at hooker, while Bandise Maku is likely to be on the substitutes bench as cover.
Team doctor Craig Roberts said that Smit could be out of action for 10 days.
“He underwent a scan today and there is a grade one tear to the hamstring. If everything goes well, he should be available for the second Test against Italy in East London.”
Maku joined up with the squad on Monday.
Players like Gary Botha and Tiaan Liebenberg will probably just shake their heads about Maku’s inclusion, but coach Peter de Villiers emphasised that he is experimenting.
“I’m not building a house, but just shifting the furniture around a little,” the coach said with one of his typical analogies.
“The idea is to arrive at the best 45 players to pick my World Cup squad of 30 players from. I have given the best lock in the country (Rossouw) a rest, but still have three others that can play at any time.” (OK do it but dont forget your lessons in year one, stay with the trusted, stay with the experienced, dont forget combinations make a Team )
Rossouw’s rest is likely to hand Flip van der Merwe another chance as substitute lock. Alistair Hargreaves is also likely to see action in East London.
Roberts said that Andries Bekker is recovering from his back injury and should also be considered for the next Test.
Schalk Burger is the other injured player. His ankle injury is likely to open the door for Dewald Potgieter.
Potgieter is likely to play with Francois Louw and Pierre Spies in the loose-trio, with Ryan Kankowski set to do duty on the substitutes bench.
At training on Monday Spies amazed team-mates by slotting a drop goal of 60m.( see no need to drool about Frans Steyn, nice one PS, show them, :lol:)
The centre pairing of Wynand Olivier and Jaque Fourie will be rested. Jean de Villiers and Butch James will be the midfield combination.
Think that drop kick by Spies was made to show them that anybody can kick that far. I am sure a lot of talk inside the team is about that hype.
The lighter moments in a team.
a way to make your point.
😆
Whichever way you look at it this hooker selection is sending out the wrong signals.
Players like Botha and Liebenberg are being overlooked.
Full stop.
No amount of bullshit from the coach can explain that.
We are more likely to see Maku and Chilli in the mix in he future.
This just gives ammunition to the idea that they are selected because they are black.
Liebenberg and Botha need to seriously consider their future as professional rugby players and start looking at the best financial options.
PdV also talks about building today for a future after 2011. Both Gary Botha and Tiaan Liebenberg are currently 28 years of age, becoming 29 later this year. Personally I do not see either of them in the picture coming 2015. Chilliboy and Maku are currently 24 years of age. Their best playing years will be between 2012 and 2015.
John Smit and Bismarck will be the hookers up till 2011. Bismarck at 26 years can go up till 2015.
To me it seems PdV just might getting it right. Gary Botha and Tiaan Liebenberg are almost at retiring age.
A Coloured, Whitey and an Indian sit in a restaurant.
They’re staring at another man sitting on his own at a table in the corner.
He looks so familiar, and not recognising him is driving them mad.
They stare and stare, until suddenly the Coloured twigs: “My goodness, that is the POPE!”
Sure enough, it is the Pope.
Thrilled, they club in and send him over the best chow on the menu.
The Pope accepts the food, smiles over at the three men, and starts eating.
After he’s finished eating, the Pope approaches the trio.
He shakes the hand of the Indian, thanking him for the food.
When he lets go, the Indian gives a cry of amazement:
“My goodness! The arthritis I’ve had for 30 years is gone. It’s a miracle!”
The Pope then also shakes the White’s hand. As he lets go, the man’s eyes widen in shock.
“Its true! The backache I’ve had all my life is completely gone. It’s a miracle!”
The Pope then approaches the Coloured who knocks over a chair and a table in trying to get away from him.
“What’s wrong?” asks the Pope.
The Coloured shouts, “Jy raakie aan my nie, ek’s op a disability grant!”
@ dWeePer:
You make a logical arguement, however the truth is that front row forwards are in their prime in their late twenties and early thirties and it is then when they need to play inernational rugby.
It is good to build for the future, but you should be playing your best players who have matured in the front row and bring your younger players through underneath them.
What is the point of building for the future by throwing away those who are ready at the expense of those with a lot to learn?
When a Bok team runs out to play the front row should have the best and most experienced players in it.
It is not a place to go and learn.
tight head,
“When a Bok team runs out to play the front row should have the best and most experienced players in it.”
Given the amount of rugby that is played these days (S14, Incoming tours, Tri-Nations, Currie Cup, EOY tours) and the physical load on the bodies, is it still possible to maintain the argument that the best team must play in every game?
We know that money is behind these schedules and money has the inherent ability to cheapen everything – including Bok colours.
My only problem with your argument
@ fender:
Thr best and most experienced players does not mean play John Smit into the ground.
It means backing him up with the next best and most experienced players like Botha and Liebenberg, not youngsters who are still learning.
What is the point in Gary Botha going to the UK and playing in a league that is known for its scrum technique, coming back a better player for the experience and then not being able to use that knowledge and experience at Bok level if he is good enough.
A wise coach who understood the front row would be keen to use Botha’s experience for our betterment, instead of ignoring that intellectual capital in favour of 2 young hookers who are short on game time and experience.
The way PdV operates is to give youngsters the opportunity to learn from the best. For the hookers it is from John Smit.
Alistair Hargreaves is in the squad for the same reasons.
Gary Botha is already a Bok and playing for the Bulls and therefore he will no problems to fit in the Bok environment. He is ready to step in any time there is a crisis. Currently there is no crisis, so it is the time to play Chilliboy and Maku. If it was the Tri-nations then it should change the policy.
@ dWeePer:
So what do you want to say to Botha?
It does not matter how good you are, we will not pick you unless we absolutely have to!!
Is that a good way to handle our intellectual capital in the front row which is a scarce commodity?
So do we throw away experienced hookers who have seved their apprenticeship, so that we can let inexperienced players be Boks instead?
If this continued we would never build a solid front row over time because they would all leave.
The best international front rows in history have always been those that played many games together as a unit and matured together into their thirties.
Our coach keeps changing the front row and talking about how lucky he is to have all the choices, and then everybody critisizes our scrumming every week.
When will he understand that you have to BUILD a front row?
@ tight head:
TH,
You may have already answered this previously, but as I’ve been incommunicado for the last 5 weeks humour me if you will.
What is your opinion of the SA front row in the last 2 tests? The good points, as well as what you see as the weakness’?
Cheers.
@ dWeePer:
I think in a way PDV is wasting everyones time now. We watched the whole S14 , we know who is the top locks , what does the man try to prove. Me , you almost everyone knows the locks are 1. VM, 2. BB, 3 DR, 4 Bekker, 5. Flippie vd M.
He must also live in lala land if he think that VM will give away all his trade secrets to another player. Why on earth will he undermine himself. Also look at the ones who left the Bulls and became his opponents, they still cant work out his magic.
So PdeV just pick the next best player in SA for the Boks he will then be able to stand his ground, do not coach us into a losing , panicking team by experiments.
@ Scrumdown:
Hi Scrumdown.
I think the biggest weakness is that we are not achieving consistency.
However you cannot do that if you are playing different players all the time.
I understand the difficulties with injury and player burn out, however I do not believe we have the mentality at coaching level to understand the importance of what I have mentioned above about building a front row by allowing them to play together.
We will be tested this Saturday against probably the best scrummagers around, yet we will once again play a new combination, so it will be difficult for us.
As far as the last 2 tests goes, Guthro has improved his technique remarkably since last year and BJ has not been nearly as bad as people have made out.
But again, it is about learning to scrum well TOGETHER on both our put in and the opposition put in and they need to play together as a combination as much as possible.
In 2005 Gary Botha was 23 years when he was selected for the Boks. Then older players were told the story of building for the future. That happens over and over again.
When Gary left for England he should have realized he leaves doors open for other players to come in.
Remember that Bismarck (my opinion when fit the best hooker) may be around till 2015 as well.
The Bulls and the Sharks both use Balie Swart as scrum consultant. Therefore these two teams learned the same scrumming techniques. When Jannie du Plessis, a Shark, came on he had no problems to scrum with four tight five players of the Bulls. BJ Botha, being an overseas based player, will need time to adapt.
@ tight head:
TH,
I sat in a small bar in the Karoo and watched the game against France, and one of the comments made over and over by the guys present, (many guys in the area hunting for the weekend, so not necessarily locals) was that BJ “looked small for an international tight head.” do you have any thoughts?
The technique of the Italians in recent months has certainly been impressive, so however packs down for SA will need to be as sharp as can be IMO.
@ Scrumdown:
TH, sorry however should read whoever.
Gary Botha and Tiaan Liebenberg arguably have 5 years or even a bit more left each in their carreers, that is about a FULL THIRD OR MORE of a rugby player’s total career, so the argument that they be shelved because of age simply does not wash!
Play the best, when they’re at their best…. this is indeed the case with Gary Botha and Tiaan Liebenberg.
It is actually incredible that Chilliboy (No 3 in the queue at the Bulls) is selected over Gary Botha (No 1 at the Bulls) and Bandise Maku (No 2 at the Bulls), in fact that a No 3 at a Union is chosen above any No 1 at any SA Super 14 Franchise, is a travesty, and no amount of justifcation will remove those clear prejudices.
The Ranking should rightfully be:
1. John Smit (mostly for his captaincy, currently slightly injured)
2. Gary Botha
3. Tiaan Liebenberg
4. Bismarck du Plessis (currently injured and recovering)
5. Deon Fourie
6. Adriaan Strauss (currently injured)
7. Bandise Maku
8. Chilliboy Ralepelle
@ dWeePer:
You seem to forget that BJ learnt all his rugby at the Sharks alongside John Smit.
He is John Smit’s first choice as tight head to play in a test alongside him.
This is because they have built up the kind of understanding that I have been reffering to above.
This understanding between a hooker and tight head is a vital component in every good front row.
@ grootblousmile:
Hoor Hoor GBS!!!
@ Scrumdown:
BJ is small by comparison to many other tight heads.
However this is not a bad thing, as he uses this to his advantage.
We are obsessed with size because we believe that means strength, and strength means the best scrummagers.
This is not entirely true, because technique is everything.
A short tight head like BJ who is also powerfull can get low and put downward pressure on a taller loose head, as well as scrum into the wedge between the oposition loose head and hooker more easily then a big tight head.
The short French loose head, Domingo was a handfull on Saturday and BJ being short himself was the best option to try and contain a very short powerfull scrummager like Domingo.
Scrumming in the front row is all about technique and the level at which you are able to scrum.
The lower you can scrum effectively together as a front row the better.
20@ tight head:
I’m not happy about the hooker situation, tighthead, there is some clear favouratism going with current selctions….
Similarly Alistair Hargreaves is being slipstreamed ahead of some “hardebaarde” who are better than him.
The No 5 Lock pecking order should be:
1. Victor Matfield
2. Andries Bekker
3. Johan Muller (left for the UK now)
4. Barend Pieterse
5. Alistair Hargreaves
… but because Hargreaves played so well at age group level they want to squeeze him ripe… well there’s a saying “Vroeg ryp, vroeg vrot”… we’ve already seen that with Chilliboy who suffered long term injuries for 2 seasons in a row now, due to being selected too early.
Regarding the rest of the various rugby positions there does not seem too many players being fast-tracked, apart from the ones mentioned… that’s why I advocate that Lambie be given a bit more time as well, let him truly settle for a whole season at the Sharks, then he can be considered.
Just for good measure, the No 4 lock pecking order now possibly should be:
1. Danie Rossouw
2. Bakkies Botha (off form and needs to be more diciplined in his play)
3. Flip van der Merwe
4. Adriaan Fondse
5. Anton van Zyl
@ grootblousmile:
what the heck did Fourie do to stabilize the shaky Stormers front row. He might shine in the lose play but he and Liebenberg was totally farked in the scrums.
Now come with a argument for Gurthro and i will believe it, he improved a lot and still shone in the lose play.
I think Loosehead and TH will agree that the front rowers first job is the scrum then the shinny stuff.
What the Bulls do with Chillyboy is nurture a strong scrum hooker, and yes everytime he came on you cant fault his scrumming. The plans the Bulls have with CR is hampered a lot with all his injury problems.
Man i wish him a injury free year so that we can asses him properly.
BJ Botha left the Sharks two years ago. Surely there was developments since then.
@ grootblousmile:
Exactly right GBS.
This is what gets me though.
The area of the game they are bringing these puppies into is the tight five!!!
This is the one area of rugby where you stick with the “harde baarde” as you say.
23@ superBul:
If Chilliboy can stay injury-free, let him climb the pecking order like everybody else…. currently he is a Vodacom Cup hooker….
Deon Fourie came on in many Super 14 matches and impressed with overall play in every one of them, so he’s a Super 14 regular and to me that ranks above a Vodacom Cup regular, even though the Vodacom Cup player might have heaps of potential, which potential still needs to be realised, even at his own Union…..
Ross Skeate has signed for the Sharks. An hour is a long time as far as news goes.
@ dWeePer:
I don’t know what developments you refer to.
Good basics and technical scrumming is just that.
It is not something that revolutionizes itself every 2 years.
John Smit and BJ can not scrum together for 2 years and bind up in the first scrum and understand what they are trying to achieve for that particular scrum.
This is the importance of playing together.
Look what happens at the Bulls.
Mangweni leaves. 29 years old.
Adams leaves. 30 years old.
Wannenburg leaves. 29 years.
I will not be surprised if more players somewhere close to 30 leave the Bulls.
One question. Does the Bulls scrum the same way as last year? I thought they developed.
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