Is success in rugby defined by an individual or by a collective team effort?
I know it is almost impossible to define so I won’t try and give you an answer to that question, but I am going to try and explore which is more important.
Throughout Peter de Villiers’ tenure when people tried to play down his achievements I insisted that better Bok teams lost against worse New Zealand and Australian teams in the past, and I stick by that.
During the week Zelim Nel from the Cape Argus wrote a column many De Villiers supporters did or will not enjoy, basically asking and telling us to put his record into perspective. Now the arguments he used in his column is not necessarily something I agree with, but I think most people missed the message in his column, and that is quite simply, if we lose John Smit we are screwed.
Great teams and great era’s are defined by many things, for me, any great team currently or from the past always had a great captain.
I was asked recently why I was so emotional whenever something negative is said about Peter de Villiers. And I think I need to put my support for old Snorre into perspective.
Nothing he has done in the past, or what he has done in his first few months of his appointment as Bok coach, convinced me that he is on the right track until the moment Peter went over to France and asked John Smit to come back to South Africa and lead the Springboks. From that moment, and until he is fired (which is the only way Bok coaches leave) he will have my support for that one single action.
We have debated many times in the past whether you select your captain first, and your team around him, or whether you select the best 22 and pick your captain from that group. It was a contentious debate back in 1995 when Francois Pienaar’s selection of captain basically guaranteed Tiaan Strauss’ exclusion from the Bok team, and it there was similar sentiments when Jake White stuck with John Smit as his captain and first choice hooker when he clearly was not the best hooker in the country.
All of this is of course a matter of opinion and preference, and I am sure you will know on which side of the fence I am sitting on! But it is an opinion which made me slept much easier when I recently read an article by one Gregor Paul of New Zealand when he chatted to Alan Whetton, a former New Zealand loose-forward flanker.
It was a discussion with the former All Black great on why New Zealand, dominating world rugby for the last 20 odd years, failed to win a World Cup since the inception of the tournament which was held on New Zealand soil in 1987.
In what was a summation by Whetton (which I am sure many South Africans will enjoy too given how he lashes out at the lack of discipline we instill in our children today) it basically came down to one thing he said that caught my attention; “We have lost a generation of leaders”.
That one quote sums up so many things for me personally it is almost unbelievable and impossible to highlight all of them in one single article – but the message is clear, strong and to the very point I, and I believe Zelim Nel try to make when we say that; “If we lose John Smit, we are screwed”.
Yes one man cannot win you a game of rugby, as much as one swallow does not make it summer, just as many conspiracy theories or opinions and ‘open secrets’ about De Villiers is, or might be true, but the one thing that defines this Bok team, hailed by some as the greatest ever is defined by only one thing, or one person, John Smit.
Jan Smit was allowed to become too big in our rugby minds. The games he missed was not all lost , but only the losses where highlighted. Yes he has become a great “lightning arrestor” in a sense where all the thunder and shouting was so perfectly relayed to him or by him.
The fact is he is not in the team purely as the best player in his position, but he has become so big in our minds that no one can look beyond him anymore.
At this stage i will not drop JS , but i will fear no one if FdP , Victor, Habana is still there. There is life beyond JS.
One must remember that this year he tasted victory on NZ soil for the very first time, so although he was there for many a match he could only bring back the spoils this year. without him we achieved our breakthrough win in NZ.
@superBul –
Without him we ended stone last in the 3N last year…
We have a group of very experienced players and leaders in their own right and own field.
But without a captain they even turn to jelly.
Last year this team without John was struggling.
This year with John we won a series against the B&I Lions, NZ and Aus.
His value this year is best illustrated in the first test against the B&I Lions in Durban.
To ignore his value is dangerous.
Hi.
I, for one, am not afraid of John Smit. He can be there, or he can’t.
Correct facts:
Last year without John Smit we won SA won in the House of pain.
Last year with John Smit for most of the games we came last in the 3N
The difference this year was Morne Steyn!
@Morn̩ РI would not blame his absence for that, the coach we all hailed this year did his apprenticeship last year. There was a lot of disbelief in PdVs plans, the players did not buy in immediate.
There is a saying: The king is dead, long live the king. Say it differently, all leaders are replaceable. Some people attempt to talk fear into others hearts. This is another attempt!
There is another saying: cometh the hour cometh the man. Given time John Smit will be replaced by even a better captain. It might be sooner than later.
Back in the senties Thys Lourens was regarded as the best Northern Transvaal captain at that time. He was replaced by Naas Botha, still the captain in SA with the best win /lose ratio of all time.
Naas Botha was appointed captain when 22 years of age.
senties should read seventies
The thing with JS is the refs don’t want to disagree too much with a player far more experienced than them self. JS have a aura around him, and very seldom does a ref become so cocky to challenge the champion. The same thing happens to Richie McCaw, he gets away with murder because of that.
@dWeePer –
Correct facts:
John Smit played one half of one game in the 3N last year…
@superBul –
And what was the missing link between the players not ‘buying’ into the coach’s vision? What was/is the common denominator of the one person that brought coach and players together?
I can easily highlight 5 actual instances where Smit’s value is amplified, most would struggle to name one where the opposite is true.
Given time anybody can be replaced, the real question here is what makes this team, and any other great teams of the past ‘great’?
The coach or the captain?
@superBul –
Oh and I hailed the coach last year already.
@dWeePer –
Another fact…
Henry admitted in 2008 the Boks were lost without Smit.
From a NZ coach:
There is an old saying “I would give my right arm to be ambidextrous.” Many a coach has been moved, at some critical stage in the season, to declare they would also trade a limb for a top captain!
When asked why the All Blacks, the greatest team in World Rugby for most of the last two decades were incapable of winning rugby’s ultimate showpiece, Alan Whetton responded that it is not a case of talent or skill, but lack of true leadership; “We lost a generation of leaders”.
When asked yesterday in the post match press conference on what is so special about this team, Allister Coetzee the coach of WP rugby responded that he, Robbie Fleck and Proudfoot can come and go, it will make little difference to the team, the difference is that this team takes responsibility for their actions on and off the field, and that is thanks to one man, the captain Luke Watson.
Morne the fact is JS is suppose to do that after so many tests, really if he failed to play a captains role it would be almost criminal. A player with 70+ tests must be the right hand of the coach. Just like VM is helping with his experience.
But the next guy if he is given the roll on a permanent basis might do exactly what JS did, especialy if it is a experienced player like VM, FdP or JdeV. Might must actually be must.
Stand in captains cant be compared to JS, the roll he plays has become to big in SA rugby, whoever comes in to relief JS will have JS shadow hanging over him. We will only see the real new captains abilities when JS is out of the game, with him lingering around it will almost be impossible for the new captain.
@superBul –
So it is experience?
How come Percy, 100 test caps was never captain?
Do you think just given his experience he would have been a good captain? Same with Os? Mark Andrews? Andre Venter (we can name quite a few very experienced players)
Jake White is on record wrt the value of Smit, so is Peter…
Is it just me or is the site very slow?
@Morn̩ РYou are spiteful now, Victor and Jean and even FdP is known captains for their provincial sides, those were the players a was referring to.
Look as long as John can run we must use him he is the guy we invested in. I dont want him out all of a sudden , but lets see what is needed for n new captain to be successful.
Coach must belief in him – No one can replace JS in PdV eyes so that full belief will never be in the new captain. There will always be the memory of what he had before.
Players must belief – Same as above , many of the players wont immediately walk the same road with the new captain like they did with JS.
@superBul –
Spitefull?
Not at all.
Vic, Du Preez, Jean are all captains with varied degrees success at provincial level.
How easy do you think it is getting a team together at national level supposed to provincial level?
Remember 2003 and the rift between Joost and Krige and those who followed them?
Remember 2008 when Vic was captain of the Boks?
Great provincial captains does not always cut the mustard at test level – there are manye examples for that
@Morn̩ Р21
Like i said with JS around no one will get full support and THAT is where our major problem lies. SA will be in deep poo if JS is injured but if he retires and is out of the game forever we will recover, we have great players to follow his big footsteps.
It took JS almost 30 games to become a well respected hooker, we have been trough that discussion back then. I cant see us taking more than 5 matches to recover once it is announced THIS is SA,s new captain to take you to RWC 2011.
@superBul –
Which brings the next question.
Given age, years left in rugby, experience and ability, who should succeed John?
Last year PdV started off with the idea of playing rugby without structure. This year they followed the structures of the Bulls. Then to use this as a criteria to decide on captaincy border on idiocy. PdV changed his mind, I give him credit for that.
The question here is not if you need a good captain, it is rather if John Smit is replaceable. My point of view is anybody is repaceable, even John Smit. Last year the Sharks replace John Smit with Johan Muller. Sharks won the CC in many years!
Really dont know , but will the next guy ever be afforded the same time to settle?
John Smit by Scum.com
John Smit is the South Africa captain and inspirational hooker who memorably led his side to the sport’s biggest prize at the 2007 World Cup in France.
South Africa’s most-capped captain has anchored the Springboks’ scrum more times than any other player, is his country’s most-capped forward and also appeared in a record 46 consecutive Test matches between 2003 and 2007. Nick Mallett, his former coach, handed a 22-year-old Smit his international debut against Canada on 10 June 2000, using him as a replacement in the Springboks’ comprehensive 51-18 victory.
Smit retained his place in the squad throughout that year’s Tri-Nations campaign and was finally given his first start against Argentina on 12 November 2000. The gamble to throw Smit into the cauldron of the River Plate Stadium – packed with 60,000 fans – paid off with his hooker delivering an accomplished performance.
Smit held onto the No.2 shirt throughout the end-of-year tour to Europe and for the incoming tours the following year but was displaced for the 2001 Tri-Nations.
Although he remained part of the squad until the end of the year, scoring his first Test try against Italy, he dropped out of the international picture for the following 18 months with a recurring shoulder injury. The next South Africa coach, Rudolf Straeuli, handed recalled him to their squad for the 2003 World Cup.
He featured in all five matches in Australia and became the 51st player to captain the Springboks in the 46-19 win over Georgia on 24 October.
Jake White was appointed as the new Springboks’ coach in early 2004 and he handed Smit the captaincy on a permanent basis. The two immediately struck up a winning partnership with South Africa clinching their first Tri-Nations crown since 1998.
Smit went on to play a South African record of 46 consecutive Test matches between 2003 and 2007 before his run was cruelly cut short ahead of the Tri-Nations clash with New Zealand in Durban by injury.
That year began well for Smit and the Springboks with two crushing victories over England but Tri-Nations disappointment followed. But the World Cup brought redemption with Smit featuring in all seven victories, culminating with the 15-6 final triumph over England at the Stade de France in Paris.
In the first game of the 2008 Tri-Nations Smit was the victim of a spear tackle from New Zealand’s Brad Thorn. That tackle, and a subsequent groin injury, brought a premature end to his campaign.
Smit has played all his provincial rugby in South Africa for the Sharks with whom he was a beaten finalist in the 2001 Super 12 competition where they lost out to the Brumbies. In 2006, Smit was captain of the Sharks side that were beaten by South African rivals the Bulls in the final of the 2007 super 14 competition.
In the run-up to the 2007 Rugby World Cup Smit was linked with a lucrative move to French Top 14 club ASM Clermont Montferrand. When his move was confirmed after the Rugby World Cup the South African Rugby Union made the unprecedented decision that Smit would retain the Springboks captaincy.
Smit made only a few appearances for his new club but featured as a replacement in the Top 14 Final defeat to Toulouse. After just one year in France, Smit re-signed with Natal and the Sharks in South Africa.
At the end of 2008, he bounced back from his injury woes to lead South Africa on an undefeated tour of the UK with victories over Wales, Scotland and most memorably England – condemning them to their biggest-ever defeat at Twickenham. Following the end of the Springboks tour, Smit captained the Barbarians in their 18-12 loss to Australia at Wembley Stadium.
In 2009 Smit led the Springboks to a 2-1 series victory over the British & Irish Lions. He scored a try after four minutes in the narrow 26-21 win over the tourists in the first Test in Durban and played in all three matches in the series.
I think you remember the controversy and heated debate when this happened.
“Jake White was appointed as the new Springboks’ coach in early 2004 and he handed Smit the captaincy on a permanent basis. The two immediately struck up a winning partnership with South Africa clinching their first Tri-Nations crown since 1998”
For me its not whether we replace JS but will the new captain be like “handed Smit the captaincy on a permanent basis”. That is the real mountain that awaits the replacement captain.
@dWeePer –
That is the biggest load of crock created by the media.
Never was there an idea or plan to play without structure.
You can replace John Smit tomorrow, so yes no-one is irriplaceable, but would we achieve the same level of success???
John Smit absence speaks more than when he is present. Just look back in recent history for proof.
And as for Johann Muller, just go back and look at the Super 14.
On that argument, Luke Watson must then also be a great captain given what the team achieved under him in the Super 14 when Jean was rules out and now in the CC…
Can you see Luke Watson leading the Boks?
@superBul –
That will depend on the coach and whether he subscribes to the theory of selecting your captain first and then your team…
@superBul –
Didn’t Heyneke Meyer achieve some of his greatest successes as coach with his unflappable belief in Anton Leonard until his retirement?
Users Online
Total 29 users including 0 member, 29 guests, 0 bot online
Most users ever online were 3735, on 31 August 2022 @ 6:23 pm
No Counter as from 31 October 2009: 39,579,852 Page Impressions
_