SANZAR have admitted that they have ‘a little bit of a way to go yet’ before there is enough consistency in their Super Rugby judicial process.
This is a old article and many more contentious rulings followed this weekend. Is there more leniency or a softer approach before the World Cup. In tonights Superugby program Kobus Wiese said that the citing officer asked for video evidence in the Stormers vs Sharks game , but nothing came from it.
I found this article on The SA Referees site.
In an interview with , SANZAR Chief Executive Greg Peters said they were putting a lot of focus on achieving consistency across all three regions.
This follows a number of contentious incidents in the first half of the season in which some players were cited and banned, whilst others escaped sanction and some were not even cited for incidents that appeared to be similar in nature.
There have been a number of incidents that left fans and media across the regions perplexed.
Hurricanes centre Ma’a Nonu was cited and banned for one week for a shoulder charge on All Blacks teammate Jimmy Cowan, whilst Crusaders superstar Sonny Bill Williams was not cited for an equally brutal shoulder/elbow charge on Sharks loose forward Ryan Kankowski. Chiefs flyhalf Stephen Donald, this past weekend, also escaped being cited after his shoulder/elbow charge left Lions counterpart Burton Francis sprawled on the pitch and in need of medical treatment.
Another incident from the past weekend which left fans scratching their heads in bewilderment was when James O’Connor was yellow carded for a spear/tip tackle against the Bulls, but was not cited. Yet, earlier in the season, Lions fullback James Kamana was banned for three weeks for a similar spear/tip tackle.
There are numerous other incidents that highlight the lack of consistency, a fact acknowledged by Peters.
In fact, a number of players that were cited, were later cleared at subsequent judicial hearings, further raising questions about the process.
Bulls lock Bakkies Botha was cited for clearing out and against Stormers and cleared at judicial hearing, Reds prop James Slipper was cited and cleared for tip tackle against Lions and Lions flank Michael Rhodes was cited and cleared of late/dangerous tackle against the Stormers.
“Firstly, we are always seeking to improve the consistency across the three territories,” Peters told.
“It is an area, now that we have an independent office in place, that we are certainly putting a lot of focus on – that should be acknowledged up front.
“Also acknowledged up front, I don’t think we’ve got every instance right this year, that is fair to say.
“It also is critical for fans, and everyone, to understand that the first thing to look at is: Does an incident meet, what we call, the ‘red card threshold’. In other words, for an incident to be cited, and go forward to a judicial hearing, the player – had the referee acted appropriately – would have had to have been sent off [with a red card, not just yellow].
“If it doesn’t meet that threshold, it shouldn’t go forward to a judicial hearing.”
Peters, although reluctant to speak too much about specific incidents, did comment on some of the questions raised about the past weekend’s incidents and how they could be compared to events earlier in the season.
“You have mentioned a number of incidents that are all topical, and there are others you might add into that,” the SANZAR boss said.
He explained that the citing commissioners – there is one appointed from each country – meet in a teleconference call and if there is any doubt around a specific matter (even though one is appointed for every match) they collectively agree if a matter should go forward or not.
“It is still ultimately the citing commissioner’s decision that is appointed for that particular match,” Peters said, adding: “He collaborates with his colleagues.
“So only three people are now involved in that discussion.
“If we look at the James O’Connor tackle, that tackle was viewed by the citing commissioner concerned. He spoke to his colleagues – and they had the benefit of looking at it from half-a-dozen different angles, including angles that are not always shown on TV – and in our view it warranted the yellow card. It didn’t go above the horizontal, even though it was a dangerous tackle. So therefore it didn’t meet the red card threshold and the citing commissioners did not proved to a judicial hearing.
“Stephen Donald versus Ma’a Nonu, again, I’m reluctant to speak too much about specific incidents, but I will use that one again. Stephen Donald [against the Lions], in my view anyway, stood his ground rather than moving forward. The Nonu, and potentially the Sonny Bill [Williams] incident, which wasn’t cited, are different in nature.
“You would be correct in saying: ‘Why wasn’t Sonny Bill cited?’, more than: ‘Why wasn’t Stephen Donald cited?’.”
Asked how close they were to getting the consistency right, Peters answered: “I think we have got a little more work to do across the three territories, with getting a consistent approach, and we are working on that.
“The SANZAR judicial committee meets regularly to review the performances of citing commissioners, subsequent to judicial hearings versus citings.
“We are doing that on a far more regular basis now, with far more vigour and intensity, because we want to get this right and I am acknowledging that we haven’t always getting it right at the moment.
“We are saying, we haven’t got it quite right yet, we are working on it, we have made improvements, but we have a little bit of a way to go yet… that would be where I see it personally and we want to get it to a much more consistent level.
“Yes, there will always be an element of subjectivity, you can’t get away from that, but we just have to get as much consistency as possible.”
I’m surprised that CJ was not cited for his Butger Geldenhuys impression on Daniel on Saturday. He was most probably provoked, but still his actions were clearly unacceptable.
My opnion on this, and I sincerely hope that people take me up on it, is that as SAFFAS we have a collective conscience about our PAST that seems to make us want to be seen as “the good guys” world wide, whereas (at least in Rugby circles) our SANZAR “mates” from the ANZAC region really feel F All for us and stick it to us as often as possible.
So much so that very often our SA TV commentators will side with an ANXAC ref or player above a SA player / ref without batting an eyelid.
Something that an Aussie will never do, and a Kiwi only rarely.
As long as the judicial process is a closed shop it will never be transparent, and those “bending” interpretations and rules will be impervious to any comebacks.
The ref’s in general (worldwide) answer only to their own structures and any critisism of them by players and officials is treated as an attack on the very essence of Rugby itself. Any attack by the media or public invariably draws a response that insinuates that those making the criticism know nothing about the rules, procedures or structures.
IOW the ref’s and citing commissioners are a law unto themselves. You and I know F All, so accept what you’re told. Period.
When this site went quiet i had a look what is happening on Voldy. There was a Red warning there to warn the bloggers to behave, nothing new. Two of our old friends are banned there and the Sharks are very upset.
But the point i really want to make is there is a lot of upset Shark supporters about dirty play by the Stormers that went unpunished.
Scrumdown wrote:
I agree with this statement
Scrumdown wrote:
How can this be changed. We want a consistent refereeing structure. Maybe HM must build it for them :GRIN:
No joking, we shout , they say dont worry they will shout for a week and lose steam, and WE go on our merry way.
This ruling is right in my eyes, the second player was helping the lift, and i dont think for one moment this was planned, it is unfortunate but part of the game.
Highlanders halfback Aaron Smith has been found not guilty of foul play after facing a SANZAR Judicial Hearing on Monday.
Smith had been cited for a dangerous tackle on his Blues opposite number Toby Morland during a Super Rugby fixture in Dunedin last Friday. He received a yellow-card for the incident in the 76th minute of the match.
Whilst he did not disagree with the referee’s reasons for giving a yellow card, SANZAR Judicial Officer Nigel Hampton QC, found that the citing could not be made because Smith was not the player primarily responsible for lifting and then dropping or driving Morland to the ground.
Based on the evidence presented, including additional video evidence that was made available, Hampton concluded that another Highlanders player involved in the tackle had played the dominant role in lifting and dropping Morland.
Smith was therefore found not guilty and is cleared to play.
6@ superBul:
As I siad, you and I, (and the rest of the Rugby world) know F All, so just accept it.
King Paddy (O’Brien} has decided,and so shall it be!
@ Scrumdown:
7
We must find a way to get to them. I just cant accept defeat and stop watching the game when it is a total farce.
I think this problem is world wide epedemic.
I watched the Heineken cup QF yesterday between Northampton and Perpignon.
The ref’ (Clancey fromIireland?) penalised the French winger for a tackle on the Saints SH when he was in the air gathering a kick.
The resultant “coming to ground” was sickening to say the least, and how the player carried on is a testament to modern day fitness levels.
The commentators immediately suggested that a red card was in order, but after a yellow was awarded, and after another couple of looks at replays agreed that a yellow was the right decision.
B SHIT. It sickend me to watch the way the guys head and neck smashing into the ground. The Frenchman knew he was in k@k, and it showed.
A player could have been VERY SERIOUSLY AND PERMANENTLY injured, but a yerllow card sufficed.
I wonder what the ref’ would say if his young kid got knocked over by a drunken driver who only received a suspended sentence because “no permanent damage was done”. Something to think about there methinks.
@ Scrumdown:
Sorry Northampton,twas a Semi Final.
Oh, and give the Irish a good Pakslae for me in the final please.
Lots of SAFFAS due to play in that game.
@ Scrumdown:
HM used to say it is a collision sport. So you can get injured anywhere even in a great legitimate tackle. We get a bit emotional when things are blown up by TV angles. But the game is much saver nowadays, so let me support this safety drive.
8@ superBul:
It’s so difficult because the structures just don’t allow for any criticism of the ref’s.
Even at club level in JHB a ref is not obliged to appear at a Disciuplinary Committee hearing and explain his decision to red card a pl;ayer.
You cannot argue against the decision, and have no recourse. All you can do is give evidence in mitigation. I even had a player who is a qualified 1st team ref who could not defend himself at a DC hearing.
The system is “as straight as my dog’s back leg”, and there is no easy way to fix it IMO.
The system has to change, much like the Arab world at the moment.
11@ superBul:
Agree the game is much safer, but mainly because of better fitness levels, a greater awareness of how the body reacts in certtain situations and to a degree better coaching and refereeing.
What we as thew public must always bear in mind is that we see only the very pinnacle of the game on TV.
If we feel there are mistakes being made by referrees in the games that we watch on the small screen, you can be sure that there are 100’s if not 1000’s more being made at 2nd and 3rd division 3rd team games all over the country (or world?) every weekend.
Same in any sport I guess.
@ Scrumdown:
And that is were a lot of talent is lost.
Super, the only reason I can think of why no Stormers were cited after this weekend’s Sharks game is because so many Bulls and Sharks fans have made them out to be a lightweight team for so long. I can recall the terms “light five”, “Stormpoppies”,” Pansies”, “Rugryers” have been banded about here for some time now.
I mean you can’t mos be all these light and fluffy things and be dirty at the same time?
But I think you’re on the right track to restore the balance and get justice for Bakkies – you’re going to actively campaign that the Stormers are the dirtiest side south of the equator and at the same time maybe stop using those light and fluffy terms till the rugby world is in balance again. 😉
@ fender:
I’ve said it many times and I’ll continue to do so, the reason that the Stormers / WP forwards have developed / are developing into a really good unit is purely because of Matthew Proudfoot. He’s a great coach. Period.
Hi Scrumdown, I’ve got to agree with you there.
@ Scrumdown:
And he is also a Hobbit!
ah….I am so looking forward to the world cup!!
I watched the Stormers/Sharks match numerous times and think it was actually quite a ‘clean match’ by normal standards. During the match I was very irritated by comments from the commentators (SS1 English) since they were ridiculously biased. Their comments made it sound like the Stormers were helluva dirty. I say nonsense. The reaction from the Shark supporters are also really sad to hear. Apart from the CJ’s elbow to Keegan Daniel, I saw nothing of real ‘dirty’ substance. A lot of ridiculous hooha was made of Elstadt’s interaction with Bismarck near the end of the match. The commentator even spoke of him using his feet on him – utter BS – look again … he pushed him in the face … handbags stuff … that was all. Something that Jannie did on Deon also btw. Did the Shark supporters notice the dangerous and illegal clear-outs on January at the end? No … cause they had too many tears in their eyes at the time?
There was nothing worth citing in that match … from either side … period.
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