For years and years rugby laws were adapted to the way players wanted to play. Recent law changes have followed that principle though it may just be that the written laws have lagged somewhat behind accepted practice. I just had to place this article, the most passionate discussions we had here was about this subject. Lets go..
Article from sareferees
Here are some thoughts on the scrum that may be worth debating.
Let’s look at some:
1. You are not allowed to wheel the scrum deliberately.
2. You’ve got to take the hit.
3. If you put your hand on the ground, it’s a penalty.
4. You are not allowed to stand up in the front row.
There are four, and we could look at them.
1. This is simply not true.
Wheeling the scrum has forever been a rugby art. It was one of the virtues of the 3-2-3 scrum formation that it made wheeling more effective and then the forwards would ‘break and take’.
There is nothing in the laws that says the deliberate wheel is not allowed – nothing at all. In fact there is even the possibility of a reward for wheeling the scrum if the opposition have the ball.
It is also not illegal to drive the opposing scrum back, but it has to be done legally. The same is true of the wheel. It needs to be done legally.
Law 20.8 (g) Twisting, dipping or collapsing. Front row players must not twist or lower their bodies, or pull opponents, or do anything that is likely to collapse the scrum, either when the ball is being thrown in or afterwards.
Sanction: Penalty kick
So, it is illegal for a front row player to effect a wheel buy shoving skew or by pulling an opponent. He must be pushing straight and not pulling.
But that does not mean that a wheel may not be effected otherwise – for example by foot position or by players in the second row pulling on each other.
deliberately wheeling is legal.
In the match between the Sharks and the Lions on Saturday, the commentator Joel Stransky queried the wheel and quoted a Pierre Oelofse or Oosthuizen (The name is not clear), who he describes as an esteemed referee, as saying: “You may not intentionally wheel the scrum.”
That is simply not true in rugby above the age of 19. It is only in rugby under the age of 19 that it is illegal to wheel the scrum. That is a variation on the laws for senior rugby and says: A team must not intentionally wheel the scrum..
The Sharks and the Lions were not playing to Under 19 variations. They were allowed to wheel the scrum provided that they did it legally.
The identity of the ‘esteemed referee’ is a mystery.
2. You’ve got to take the hit.
There is nothing in the laws about taking or not taking a hit. The nearest bit of law we have says that charging in is illegal.
Law 20.1 (i) Charging. A front row must not form at a distance from its opponents and rush against
them. This is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick
The law also says that the scrum does not start till the ball leaves the scrumhalf’s hands at the put-in.
Law 20.7 WHEN THE SCRUM BEGINS
(a) Play in the scrum begins when the ball leaves the hands of the scrumhalf.
This is an anachronism, it seems, for now play in the scrum starts on the Engage, i.e. on the hit. Winning the hit is an important part of play in the scrummage – which has not, according to the law, even started.
Getting the hit is so important that teams sometimes jump the gun and engage before the referee has given them the right to do so.
The argument in favour of the hit is that it is safer because it ensures that the front rows get secure positions before the battle really commences. With the old fold-in, nobody was sure how good the position was till battle commenced, i.e. till the ball came in.
3. If you put your hand on the ground, it’s a penalty.
20.3 DEFINITIONS
When a player binds on a team-mate that player must use the whole arm from hand to shoulder to grasp the team-mate’s body at or below the level of the armpit. Placing only a hand on another player is not satisfactory binding.
(a) Binding by all front row players. All front row players must bind firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum.
Sanction: Penalty kick
Front row players must bind ‘firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum’. ‘from the start’. When is that?
Law 20.7 WHEN THE SCRUM BEGINS
(a) Play in the scrum begins when the ball leaves the hands of the scrumhalf.
If the unbalanced prop puts his hand on the ground before the scrum starts, should he be penalised?
Not according to the law.
The argument for the penalty from the start is that a loosehead who has ‘lost the hit’ and ended in a weak position now gets a chance to reset himself, thus negating the superior effort of the opposing tighthead who worked hard to get him onto that weak position in the first place.
It is also easier for the referee. He does not have top make a judgement call and so risk inconsistency. Hand on the ground – penalty. That’s straightforward.
It may just make more sense if the loosehead was putting his hand onto the ground to use it as the third leg of a tripod to shove the opposing tighthead up, which is illegal.
4. You are not allowed to stand up in the front row.
You will not find this in the law, nor could it ever be written into the laws.
Scrumming in the front row is potentially dangerous and a player in a dangerous position must be allowed to pull out of the scrum, e.g. by standing up, in the interests of his own safety.
It is dangerous to penalise standing up in the scrum as just that.
This is penalisable:
Law 20.8 (i) Lifting or forcing an opponent up. A front row player must not lift an opponent in the air, or force an opponent upwards out of the scrum, either when the ball is being thrown in or afterwards. This is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick
It is also penalisable for a front row player to break his bind.
Forcing up and breaking the bind are acceptable reasons for penalising a rising front row – but not just for standing up.
So if I interpret this article correctly, which the referees it seem don’t with the rules, then the IRB have a set of rules which seem to contradict each other, the referees under the astute eye of Mr Paddy O’Brien bend the rules to their own way of thinking, and the players (and us the paying public) have to suck the hind t1t every time a game is played and dance to whatever fiddler happens to be playing the tune an any given day!.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, why oh why can’t the IRB get Mr O’Brien and the worlds top 30 – 50 referees in the same room together and say “guys this is how we see the rules should be interpreted, now please apply it so. Oh and while you’re at it, please inform every other whistle blower around your area of influence that this is how the game must be officiated.”
It’s not fukcing rocket science. The IRB come across more and more as a bunch of incompetent imbeciles as time goes by.
It’s about time there was a drastic overhaul of Rugby Union on a worldwide scale.
The sport has all the ingredients that should be able to propel it to the status of a leading world sporting code but because those controlling the sport act like a bunch of incompetent amateur fools this is unlikely to ever happen.
Geez superBul, did you really want to get me soooooo wound up on a Monday morning?
Power to the players!
@ Scrumdown:
I must say after reading that article on the Referees own website , hosted on the Official SA Rugby website i was confused. Who the hell is a ref, who never played in a front row,to come and decide on this intricate scrum laws.
In the Crusader game this weekend the first scrum was after about 20 minutes, the commentators were quite happy about it, i instead felt the game has lost a special ingredient , i dont want a game without scrums.
many years back the Blue Bulls had a front row build around Willie Khats and the were begging for the 1st scrum, i think they would deliberately knock the ball to get it. That first scrum would determine who is who on that day.
If you want rugby without the powerhouses watch 7s, there is a non stop running like mad ants.
Well you can actually watch S15 too.
Some of the information in the article is inacurate, for instance:
The law governing the start of the scrum should not be read on its own, if you check law No. 20.5 it says there should be no delay, as soon as the props come together, the ball must enter the scrum, or a free kick is awarded to the defending side. So, should a prop release his bind after making contact, he is technically breaking law 20.3 meaning penalty. If there is contact there is scrum, simple as that. In other words hands on the ground is out.
You are not allowed to stand up…who said that, as far as I know all the penalties have been for scrumming up, Law 20.3(i) says as soon as a player is forced upwards or he is lifted, the scrum must immediately be stopped, which is how I understand, the rule has always been applied. This is the same for ‘taking the hit’ when last has anyone been penalized for that?
Law 20.8(g) says a player “may not twist or lower their bodies or PULL OPPONENTS or do anything that is likely to collapse a scrum.” Illegal wheeling usually occurs when the opposition prop is pulled rather than pushed. Geez man, it has always been, a player may not wheel a scrum illegally or intentionally, the only way to wheel a scrum legally is to scrum the shite out of your opponents, in such a manner that they cannot help to retreat or crumble or collapse. It doesn’t happen often in modern rugby, because all props are behemoths, but as I said, it’s the way it has always been.
The person writing this article is spreading discord by only quoting half-truths and assumptions, and is in most likeness an idiot, I don’t like the scrum laws any better than the next forward, but it is in the rules, the main problem scrumwise currently is none of the above, it is the TOUCH, PAUSE, ENGAGE facade. Outlaw that, and the rest will fix itself.
@ The Saint:
please send comments to paul@sportsmedia365.com
This was included in the article, i will see if there is a follow up. The little i know about scrums made me think this article is not totally correct.
@ The Saint:
Whilst there are numerous interpretations and innuendos at scrum time I give you the following scenario, and you tell me who should get penalised.
Two opposing packs scrum. Both packs take the hit and the scrum is steady. The ball is put in by team A, and pressure is immediately applied by team B.
The locks of team A do what they are there to do, namely LOCK the scrum, but the pressure keeps on coming from team B, whose front row are scummaging both straight and with their heads above hip level.
Because team B are stronger the front row of team A has only one place to go, upwards, but not necessarily “standing up”. Invariably their feet are lifted off the ground and they “hang in mid air. Very dangerous indeed.
Team B’s front row have 2 options, continue scrumming straight and possibly cause a disabling injury, or change to an inclined upward line of scrummage which would cause the front row of team A to “pop”.
Who should get the penalty?
OK, if their feet lift off the ground, in this situation, no penalty should be given, as the scrum will be reset immediately as per Rule 20.4(g), and Team A will once again be able to put in the ball.
However, the more likely scenario will be (In the situation you describe) that Team A will be penalized for popping out the scrum as it were, rewarding the stronger team, as it should be.
This situation has happened before, but more often than not, the scrum will collapse, because of the touch, pause, engage rule, that sees to it that a team cannot be surprised and be caught on the back foot anymore, as they are forced to get into the correct position, so it will implode, rather than explode, and both front rows will be eating grass.
@ Scrumdown:
Can i throw in a stone.
Do you think the refs can understand the action you just described.
Will they consistently make the same call.
Will they not blow the one team in the first half and swing around and blow a few to the other team to balance the penalty count. Off course because the dont know who is at fault, clueless?
@ superBul:
In an nutshell “NO”.
I believe that 95% of the ref’s would penalise the stronger team (B) for “scrumming up”.
Basically they’re (for the most part) ignorant of the dynamics involved in a scrum and even more so the front rows IMO.
Graham Henry about scrum /refs
For all his meticulous planning, though, he knows there are the uncontrollable situations he can do little about, like the referees.
While he made light of English whistleblower Wayne Barnes while addressing the men and women sitting around him on hay bales during the week, he knows they are the great variable.
“I think the refereeing of the scrum is a concern, there is a lot of guessing going on,” he says. “The scrum is a very important part of the game and it is a very important contest in the context of the game. At the moment I think a lot of referees are giving that contest away and giving a penalty here and a penalty there and it is becoming a problem.” Not that he wants to go too far when it comes to his criticism, insisting the International Rugby Board had got its World Cup referees panel “pretty much right”.
Biggest myth of all: The ref’s know what’s going on.
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