How does a team that came of such a high in 2009 hit such a low in 2010, more importantly, can it be fixed?
To answer the second question, yes it can be, the problem is when we look to answer the first question, have we correctly identified the problems?
Parallels and comparisons have been drawn in just about every conceivable form to find answers for where Springbok rugby finds itself. Individual analysis of games and players can also highlight what is perceivably, or possibly the source of the problems the Springbok team currently experience.
I have myself ventured into the statistics arena of debates in recent weeks, discussed player selections and game plans and tactics and various other elements which all possibly contributes to the current state of affairs.
But just this weekend following the last test between the Springboks and Wallabies and specifically studying the defensive structures of the Springboks I was reminded of what Peter de Villiers said on the overseas leg of the Tri-Nations where after he studied one of the losses to the All Blacks on video, he could not pin-point where it all went wrong or identify the problem…
Of course that statement has given the media enough ammunition to crucify the Springbok coach but on Sunday, when I watched the game again I realised this is probably the most honest assessment Peter de Villiers gave of the Springboks in his three years in charge and his most accurate.
What occurred to me is Peter, and his management are not so much wrong with their statements like there is little wrong with the defensive structures, because the problem is not the structures.
A couple of months ago I challenged Dr. Ross Tucker to provide us with some insights into the psyche of the Springbok team and management and two things he mentioned, or warned us against, has become evident in the last part of this year and the Tri-Nations and to my mind, the biggest contributor to the fall from grace the Springboks have experienced.
The first issue he touched on was sport cycles, or cycles in sport, and the difficulty for any team or individual to achieve sustained success in professional sports.
Much has been said in recent years on the point and purpose of players like John, Victor, Schalk, Juan and the likes on the reasons they still stick it out, where most believe they have achieved all they needed to and possible needed to step down after the British and Irish Lions series in 2009. The players told you they had one more goal to achieve, and that was to avenge the defeat at the hands of the Lions 10 years ago and for the opportunity to play in such a series, an honour not afforded to every rugby player.
They were motivated, focussed and hungry for success, and they achieved it. Because they are that damn good.
Following that series talk shifted from the Lions series, to be the first team to successfully defend the Rugby World Cup for the first time in history in New Zealand in 2011. And they have the ability to do this, because again, they are that damn good.
But then of course there is the small matter of 2010, the year in-between these two goals which is honestly more of a hindrance than a blessing…
Remember we are talking of players here that has won every single medal that can be won in professional rugby, that has beaten every team in every country they played in, hanging on for that one last opportunity to go down in history as legends of the game of union, the Rugby World Cup in 2011.
How do you manage these guys through a period like 2010, where they will sub-consciously enter into preservation mode rather than defend a title they have won twice already against teams they play 6 times every year?
It is easy to say rest them but you simply cannot send them on a 4 month holiday as tests are there to be won regardless and game time management is also important for players even during times of conditioning or mental rehabilitation. It is a very fine balance.
But it should have been done, and it was not.
The second problem we have comes down to exactly what happens within this team. Mentally teams learn very little from success, and it is quite easy to fall behind the guys chasing you and you are easily caught up in the mentality that you simply have to do what worked for you before.
The reality in rugby union however dictates that you have to continually evolve and adapt, the Springboks did not.
Why?
Well Peter de Villiers’ management style has been discussed many times. Empowering the players or elements within the team is one thing, doing it at the expense of losing all your own power however is quite another, and this is a trap De Villiers has fallen into.
Rugby success or failure is made up of the sum of parts, each part playing a vital role in the sustainability of a team’s success, but having parts of this system (players) drive this system is not a very bright idea.
It seems that Peter de Villiers biggest strength when he started off as a coach of the Springboks, has become his biggest enemy because it was not managed properly.
Jake White realised this just in time to fix his failings in 2006, not the way he managed his players or coached them, but that the system needed forces from outside, sometimes not even directly related to rugby and tactics and game plans, to drive the system to ensure honest, critical and constructive analysis is done on the team and its individuals, including management to ensure you sustain good performances and success.
For parts in just about all the tests in this year’s Tri-Nations apart from the opening test in Auckland, the Springboks played some inspired rugby, only for it all to fall apart or for them to conspire against themselves.
The question is not therefore whether we can play the type of rugby to beat the best in the world, the question is why this cannot be done more often and for longer periods.
Peter de Villiers does not have very far to look to find the problem with his team, but I doubt whether he is looking in the right place. There are individuals out there that will compliment the Springbok setup, one of which is the likes of a guy that predicted all this months ago already…
@ grootblousmile:
I just wonder if all who goes on and on about the BAD defense considered this.
At least 3 tries was illegally scored, Refs blatant errors, it might even be 5. The Australian team that everyone drools about conceded 19 with one game to go, we might lose our record this weekend.
How many of our tries was foiled by the illegal tactics of spoilers/ At least 3 maybe also 5.
Lets face it almost All the 50/50 calls went against us. Stats we know can be so misleading.
31@ superBul:
How many try-scoring chances against the Bokke were butchered… we were lucky to concede only 22 tries.
How many tries has the All Blacks conceded… do we measure ourselves against them or the Wobblies?
Why did we concede 4 tries 2 weekends in a row in under 30 minutes… is that the fault of referees?
Face it, you can moan about external factors and refs and lady-luck as much as you want, Bokke defence leaks like a sivv!
I still do not buy the “Blame the ref” excuse, and NEVER WILL!
@ Morné:
Morne
Check out itsrugby.co.uk, you can find the stats of the NZ players.
IMO, they played a similar amount of rugby this year. But in the past two years, SA has played more.
I did this analysis last week:
http://www.rugby-talk.com/?p=17272
I have a problem when mediocrity is accepted…. maybe because I’m in an Industry where if computers are loaded, programmed, configured only 98%, it means that the missing 2% causes all sorts of shit, making the system fail.
Only 100% PLUS is good enough….
Garbage in, garbage out…. that is what we’ve seen from the Bokke, I suppose…
ID TEN TEE errors………….. it spells ID10T, for those who do not know.
@ grootblousmile:
Ja Mr Lawyer you dont answer much, just come up with a new question.
GBS i think my stance is clear , i dont see that one single savior is lurking around, not Jake , not HM, not Fred Allister, not FL no one will do the miracle switch. The Boks have played and lost to New Zealand like this since 1992.
I dont want to go through the tiring political sideshows again, we can put the heat on Divvie and SARU to appoint more specialists and rid us from Dick and Goldie.
grootblousmile wrote:
Maybe a few with great defense 😆
35@ superBul:
So, help me if I’m wrong here about your stance…
1. You’re happy to sit with a kak coach, for fear of sitting with political sideshows….. which we sit with anyway due to his wayward mouth.
2. In addition you’re happy to suck the All Blacks hind tit, simply because it has been happening since 1992 anyway.
3. You are happy to be blind to the mistakes of the Bokke Team and choose willingly to blame referees and interpretations, mistakes and lady-luck in stead.
4. You do want a change in Bokke coaching staff… as long as it is Dick and Gold…. but not Divvie.
5. You fail to see alternative coaches as a possibility, without giving reasons for their inadequacy…. for instance – Why would you say Alistair Coetzee or Heyneke Meyer cannot do a better job, is it based on fact or on a thumb suck?
Let me give you insight into how I see it…. I say the World Cup is ALREADY LOST UNLESS we do something dramatic, and I’m willing to take a chance on Heyneke Meyer or Alistair Coetzee or even Jake the Snake….. just to give us a POSSIBLE CHANCE of winning the damn thing.
Naturally my preference lies with Heyneke Meyer as the right man for the job, his Abilities, Player Management, Family Culture attitude and Relation to the Media is EXACTLY how a Team should gel in a World Cup Competition situation…. one tight solid unit playing for each other and willing to die for their coach!
As always a good article Morne’
I am a great believer in the mental game. As an International Combat rifle competitor I have seen ample evidence of this. The supposition that the guys are in a preservation mode is a very astute one and I think you are correct. However those very players will be worrying about their position in the team, so will be trying as individuals to impress…so lack of cognitive management processes shared with senior players leads to mental stress, with the senior players running things that is even more mentally stressful. You have just made a very good case for firing De Villiers and the whole team and replacing them with someone who can “smokkel with the players koppe”. the only three I have known in this country who can do that is Danie Craven, Kitch Christie and Jake White. GBS makes a case for Heynecke…I think he will battle to motivate the non Bulls guys, there are different value systems at play here. I reckon Jake is the guy for the job…or as I said yesterday we must get a complete outsider, but one who understands South Africans intimately. We have the skills no question, but at the moment certain players believe they are under threat…I for one will take Habana at 95% above any other wing in the country, but he is firing at 75% and nobody is putting him at ease about it…who can, certainly none of the present 3. Get rid of them, give Jake the job and ask Heynecke and others to help. We simply have to take this opportunity to be the first to lift the world cup twice in a row.
grootblousmile wrote:
I have never ever said he is a shit coach and i still feel he is right up there with the best in SA. His mouth i also said i find it funny. Why so serious . Remember we have a neighboring President who tells the World whatever he wants , for the last 30years or more and nothing can be done, Zimbabwe is still there. This is Africa, not prim and proper England. And dont tell me now i want us to go that way. I just point out that we can be different and still be respected.
grootblousmile wrote:
You know me better than this, i fought on voldys and here about our poor results against NZ, many stats was digged up by me to show what a disgrace Jake was in throwing tests. Maybe Peter read some of my comments thats why he does not come out in the open and say that he is building for WC and he is throwing matches just like Jake did.
grootblousmile wrote:
Can i say just like you want to ignore the fact that we were robbed in at least 2 games from a win. Just like i concede that the ABs was robbed in the previous WC from advancing to the semi finals. In Cricket they say that umpire decisions can cost a player or a coach its job, it seems that these blatant mistakes is now busy costing Peter.
grootblousmile wrote:
We all agreed that that is our problem, now you attack me on that. Can i counter ask you do you want Dick?
grootblousmile wrote:
Good grief , AC was just as much in the firing line in Jakes time, if i know how to go into voldys archives i will find hundreds of posts by US about the way Eddie saved our back line. You too were against him. HM is not currently a active coach, we all know what he is capable of, but to bring him in now will be grossly unfair to him, a ticket to failure. So i feel for him , but leave him out of this.
grootblousmile wrote:
Think 3Nations 2006 the away leg, did you feel the same?
Guys, this is not about what Jake White did wrong, this is about what PDV is doing wrong.
I watched some ITM cup this weekend, and one thing that stuck out like a sore thumb is the way these teams employ their back lines and forwards on attack.
Or standard attack is to hit with the forwards up close, making a meter at a time, then eventually if we do dicide to go with the backline we pass to Jean de Villiers who craches up into the opposing backline defenders and hope to make yards, if we do decide to go all out to the wing, it is a case of 9 to 10 to 12 to 13 to 14.
The New Zealanders have 2 “pockets” of attack, three guys in the depth that a flyhalf would normally be, and three more guys mostly the centers and a wing in another “pocket out wide. But with significant distance between these to pockets.
By doing this they can either hit the inside center at speed with these three feeding of each other by passing in or out as they come in a V, or go wide and do the same with the other pocket.
They can also bring in the speed from the outside “pocket” to come in at an angle and split through the defense.
This is just one of the ways they attack, and I have never seen us even try that. So hence they are unpredictable.
Or they attack with their players in a line but use skip passes, how many times do we try that.
The basic difference between us and NZ, last year Sivivatu would handle the ball up to almost 20 times per match, how many times do our wings handle the ball?
So there are just some solutions on attack.
39@ superBul:
Ahhhh, honesty at last….
You think Snorrie is a good coach and you think he is funny….
I understand now, fully!
That’s why it is only natural for you to fend for him, to downrun any other coach, Jake & Heyneke included, why you choose to blame refs, errors and the bounce of the ball…. because hey, it cannot be that little man that I like so much, right here in Africa.
Dick and Gold is a problem, they should go.. as I’ve said for a long time now…. but Snorrie has to fall with those he chose as assistants. We are now spiralling down under him and the manner of the losses are getting progressively worse.
No, I do not think the Bokke were robbed of 2 wins this year, notwithstanding any errors and interpretations, on the contrary the All Blacks and the Wallabies have been clearly and markably better than the Bokke on the away leg of the Tri-Nations, they made us look like a schoolboy side! The All Blacks were still better at Soccer City as well. The Bokke lost 5 from 6 in the Tri-Nations.
Alistair Coetzee is 3 years richer in experience than he was in 2007, I’ve been mightely impressed with him this year. He’s been instrumental in the Stormers revival, much more so than Rassie could ever have been… and at least he knows how to talk to the Media.
But like I say, I prefer Heyneke… and I do not think a year is too short for him to turn things around. I do not think it is setting him up to fail either…. remember Kitch Kristie, he did the ambulance job, with less time than a year and we won. A 1/3 or more of the Bokke are Bulls with which Heyneke have that strong bond already, of the rest most are Afrikaans, bar John Smit and Kanko & Butch if I’m correct, and seemingly religious so the culture should not be a problem and neither should the feeling of “family bond”.
Let’s put money on it, here’s a dare… R 5000.00 bet. I say we won’t win the World Cup with Snorrie at the helm.
@ grootblousmile:
You know for just about every single point you made in this post I can go back to the article above and quote in sections to answer you, but I see no point in repeating myself really.
What is fucking hilarious is you spewed the same kak about Jake White in 2006 and I basically told you the same thing back in the days on Keo that I am telling you now but I guess I don’t need to remind you of that.
I actually thought that since you now run your own thing and actually get information from the source you would differentiate between the shit and the shoots but it seems not.
As for your assessment, it is interesting that the Boks kicked less than last year, and the AB’s more… so I don’t quite understand your point about an outdated game plan…
As for the defensive structures, I suggest you get in touch with Ian, spend some time with John McFarland at a Bulls training session and ask him to explain the complexities of employing (planning) defensive structures, how you adapt it in game situations and field positions and what the roles of each player is in each discipline.
For the record, I spent about 3 hours on Sunday studying just the defensive structures and patterns of the Boks.
The cause of our defensive frailties imo was not the structure, but that the Boks employing it 90% of the time did not go ‘fetch’ tackles beyond the advantage line but rather waited in their lines and channels – and giving teams like Aus and NZ 2 seconds more on the ball will kill you and that is what happened.
I only picked up 3 individual defensive errors in fact. But that is my analysis so I don’t expect you to take it seriously since I am, according to you spreading some kind of gospel…
Oh and of course actions in different areas of the game influence defensive lines and structures, like rucks, but so does a shit kick, which twice by Hougaard in as many games resulted in 14 points – and many other aspects but then again I did mention in the article the sum of parts I am sure???
Many things contribute to the ultimate result, defense is one of them so logically you have to ask how you can fix the parts or what the cause if for the parts failing from a team on top of the world 12 months ago, to one in the dumps at the present moment…
Even more relevant, as mentioned in the article once again, in parts the Boks played some brilliant rugby, the question is more why we lost it in crucial areas to implode and contribute to the ultimate result.
If you think it is as simple as one person, the coach, or his assistants then I really have nothing more to say to you.
I try and explore an underlying issue which is what I have done above, steering away from the obvious braindead bullshit I have to read in reports by so-called rugby experts masking as journalists to state a case who are nothing more than profit driven beasts who probably never even attended or managed a schoolboy rugby training session.
I would like to think it is food for thought rather than a gospel, because most of the time I am just stating the obvious, just from a perspective that does not follow general opinion.
Its there for you to disect, analyse, criticise and pull apart, so have fun.
@ grootblousmile:
i have not that money to play around with. but we can bet for something smaller. You try to bully me out of a bet with that amount 😆
42@ Morné:
Ahhhhh, edgy… very, very edgy….
Just because we dare to voice a contradictory opinion and dare to think that there is quite a lot wrong at the Bokke defensively… and do not agree with your way of thinking, Mr Mier…
Tell me, you picked up 3 defensive individual errors only in 5 tries… mmmmmmmmm, that is funny!
…and we’re not playing an outdated game…. OK… hahaha
Enjoy your evening….
43@ superBul:
Name the amount you’re comfortable with.
If anybody needs a shooting coach…I’m available!!!! as long as I am not afforded the title of accomplice to the murders that the ou’s want to commit here today.
46@4Man – How ’bout shooting a coach?
46@ 4man:
Sammajoor, what should be my weapon of choice…. we’re talking hand guns here, not rifles….
I have a CZ 80 and a Ruger .357 Magnum, Stainless Steel, speed six…. but is that enough… hehehehe… and remember, I’m left handed, so your choice has to take cognicense of that fact…. prefer a pistol to a revolver… personal taste.
@ grootblousmile:
I would have thought you know me long enough to know I never get edgy, close to 3000 articles in 5 years has made me oblivious to that.
I do however take the time and effort to respond to as many posts in each and every one of those because it is a decent thing to do.
If you cared to read carefully you would actually see that I agree there is a problem with defense, I just don’t think the reason highlighted for those frailties are as simple as people make it out to be, but thats just me.
And for the record, I picked up 3 INDIVIDUAL defensive errors, meaning one player fucked up. The rest was collective errors mainly explained in my previous post.
I am yet to see a decent analytical view in mainstream media about the Bok woes of the last 3 months, if you can point me in the direction of one I would appreciate it.
Until then, I will spread the gospel my brother.
@ grootblousmile:
45
jou PC vir myne
@ superBul:
Whats the bet???
I need an external HDD, bet him one of those!
wise words from news 24 blogs
To be fair, players like Habana, Frans Steyn and a couple of others have really let Divvy down, these are supposed world class players but of late they’ve been lacking that BMT that is so vital to winning against teams like New Zealand and Australia. But I think that the single biggest drawback in Springbok rugby is the public. You can bet your house that if we, the public, and our media gave Div the support that he should have had from us unreservedly, things would have been much different right now.
To finish off, I believe that there are better coaches in South Africa than Peter De Villiers, but I also believe that Div is a competent rugby coach at any level. I think that overall he’s got a raw deal by us the people that should be assisting him by way of boosting his and the teams morale. If Div is going to stay in charge till next years World Cup, then we need to get firmly behind him because it’s definitely not going to help him or the players if we constantly criticize and find fault. The nature of the game means that there will be losses along the way, and just as the All Blacks are peaking right now and we are in a slump, things turn around pretty quickly and as I mentioned on Ariku’s post yesterday, our slump right now may just be a blessing in disguise, in this game, especially between the three Southern Hemisphere giants, there’s actually a very fine line between winning and losing.
@ superBul:
I cant remember if it was on this thread or another (too lazy to check) I told tighthead about my view on coaches in this country…
@ grootblousmile: Well the 9mm bullet has better penetration but the .375 has knocking down power. If you wanted a guy to think about his wrongs for a while, shoot him with the 9 mil, but dont hit a vital organ.
@ Pam Anderson: ha ha…I’ll coach the shooter, but will not be an accomplice as previously indicated. I was more worried about the bloggers than the coach, he looked about ready to do himself in…they need mental coaching …..very seriously.
@ superBul: This is the biggest single reason I say the Bok coach job is a poisoned chalice you need buffalo hide to do that job. We once tried getting a rugby fan association together…what did we achieve about 300 people was it. The rugby fans love to criticise in SA and misery loves company, the unfortunate thing is that 90% of them dont understand much about the fundamentals of the game. I reckon the problem is not that hard to fix…PDV is exhausted as are his assistants probably…so our way forward is obvious. Jake has the neccessary thick skin.
50@ Morné:
You’re just difficult and obstinate, flok!
Gedra jou, al is dit sleg!
Let me redirect my words, more carefully…. so you don’t get your knickers in a knot, again…. flokken WP Supporter….
I am embarrassed by the Springbok defence, individually and as a collective.
I suppose where we differ radically is that I attribute the collective failure on defence to the inability to coach the collective unit to know and execute INSTICTIVELY, as a machine… and do the right thing in unison.
Honest question… Do you differ with me that players seem to be unsure in certain situations whether they should drift the opposition to the sideline or employ the umbrella defence. Point in case…. 1 try on Saturday… Habana shot up quickly and inwards (typical umbrella tactic), whereas his mates tried to drift… collision between Bokke players going for same opposition player… try time.
Then individual mistakes… man, I saw Habana make at least 3 on his own….
As you know, I used to think the world of Habana, but he’s been sooooooo bad this Tri-Nations… maybe it’s fatigue, maybe it’s confidence, maybe it’s now a case of over eagreness to regain form… Do you or don’t you think it’s time, apart from the now obvious conditioning break, to give someone else an extended run at left wing, if so who would your candidates be and for what reason.
Some players need more critisism than others at the moment, but one needs to recognise when someone is playing well too. My knife’s been out a bit for John Smit in the Tri-Nations in general but I felt on Saturday he had a slendid game, so too Victor Matfield… how brilliant was that chip kick and collect for Mossie’s try.
Regarding one player or the coach… that’s not the issue here, the issue is rather a sum of a lot of things, and one reaches the end of a rope after a while. That’s how I feel about Snorrie, Dick and Gary… at the end of the tether… that’s also how I feel about Habana, he needs to make way for someone in form… and I feel there are 2 candidates who tick the boxes, Basson & Mvovo.
My points regarding possession is known, I will not bore you with it, other than to ask whether you agree we still sit with too little possession in a game, in general.
Go spread your false gospel…. flokken WP ledeprediker….. hehehe
50@ superBul:
Flok, neeeeeeeeee, my PC is ‘n MASJIENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN !!
Kom, ek sien Morné praat van ‘n External Hard Drive…. 1.5 Terrabyte External Hard Drive… dissie so duur nie, seker hier by R 850.00….
@ grootblousmile:
I think you will find we do not differ that much at all…
All the failings of 2010, I put in the basket of two men, PDV and Smit because that is where it all starts.
We can break down and analyse parts of all this to death, it will all come down to the same thing.
Perhaps it is a case that when I actually criticise the coach I am not doing it well enough because most think I am complimenting him…
I have said many times a fundamental flaw I have always had is to back the coach, any coach, first and foremost.
Where we differ I believe is where I think the Bok problems are not that complex, and not that difficult to fix, from what I read, you think it is…
Where we agree and saying it in different ways, is that I am unsure that PDV has the ability to identify the real, actual, underlying problem – but a year out from the RWC, I don’t think many will add more value.
PDV took his eye off the ball, he suffered the consequences, he has the ability to fix this and we have the resources to win the RWC in 2011, but I am afraid the changes I believe necessary, will not happen in time.
But for now, I live by the hope that he does realise this and fix this, because no-one, other than him has a better opportunity to do this, certainly from my belief, no-one currently outside the setup such as Jake or Heyneke.
Raait kom ons raak bietjie meer persoonlik … Puma en die Sharke gaan dit nie like nie. Habana stem ons almal saam was nie wel Saterdag nie. Maar waar de hel was Frans Steyn? Watse rol het sy AWOL vertoning gehad met die swak verdediging.
Ek weet mens moenie CC met Toetse vergelyk nie maar kyk die guts van Zane in verdediging, hoe vreesloos hy ingaan en ek het hom nie eenkeer sien mis nie. Nee wat golden banana boy was maar lekker absent.
Dit maak dit 2 swak verdedigers, klaar n gat so groot soos n waenhuis deur.
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